The Art of Alignment: Discovering Your True Vocational Path With Julia Starr

• What is Constructive Developmental Theory and how does it help us understand how adults grow and mature?
• Tell us some of your story and how you originally intersected with the Constructive Developmental Theory.
• Tell us about the difference between inside out and outside in.
• Explore how much, our relationship to ourselves, influences how successful we are in our professional lives.
• Talk to me about the importance and benefits of vulnerability and curiosity.

Connect With Julia Starr

• Connect with Julia | Website - Linkedin - TikTok - Instagram - Facebook

Additional Takeaways

• Constructive Developmental Theory explains how adults grow and evolve.
• The transition from socialized mind to self-authored mind is crucial for personal growth.
• Vulnerability starts with being honest with oneself.
• Community plays a vital role in personal development.
• Fear often indicates that you are on the right path.
• Self-knowledge is foundational for making meaningful changes.
• Interdependence is essential for personal and societal growth.
• Achievement alone cannot sustain a fulfilling life.
• People often need a safe space to express their vulnerabilities.
• The journey of growth is a gradual process that requires patience.

Additional Resources

• Read: An Introduction To Constructive Developmental Theory + Related Resources
• Keith Eigel, Ph.D. — Trading Chaotic Confusion For Convicting Clarity by Accelerating Character Development

The book links below are affiliate links.

• Book: Immunity to Change: How to Overcome It and Unlock the Potential in Yourself and Your Organization
• Book: In Over Our Heads: The Mental Demands of Modern Life
• Book: The Map: Your Path to Effectiveness in Leadership, Life, and Legacy

Podcast Episode Unedited Transcript

Jason Scott Montoya (00:01.555)
Welcome to a Listen to Learn episode of the Share Life podcast. I'm Jason Scott Montoya and today I'm speaking with Julia Starr. Julia, say hello.

Julia Starr (00:09.442)
Hi, nice to be here.

Jason Scott Montoya (00:11.839)
Yeah, and that's JuliaSstarr with two R, star with double R. Recently I got active on TikTok. Had kind of been resisting it for a while. Julia is a TikTok star, so she's already posting on there and doing clips. And I stumbled across her because I was posting some clips about constructive development theory and I hit that hashtag and I was like, I wonder if anyone else is doing stuff. And she happens to be one of those. You're not familiar with constructive development theory. We'll talk a little bit about that. But essentially the simple version of that is it's

It's a framework for understanding how people, and particularly adults, grow and mature through their life. so Julia is a leadership and career coach. She helps high achieving professionals who feel stuck gain clarity and confidence as they pivot into a vocational path that is in greater alignment with their strengths and values. So in this discussion, we're gonna talk about that in the lens of constructive development theory.

but we're gonna specifically focus on the part of it that is inside out oriented. And so we're gonna discuss how successfully architecting a career or business in life that fulfills us, to do that requires that we have a deep understanding of ourselves. And so we're gonna talk about that inside out development. So Julia, to get us started, what is constructive development and how does it help us understand how adults grow?

Julia Starr (01:38.892)
Yeah, yes. So I'll try to make this easy and digestible. I'm sure we'll get into it further, but constructive development theory, otherwise known as CDT, is really a theory of how adult psychology evolves throughout our lives. so prior to CDT and all of the research that was done on

Can adults continue to develop, essentially was the initial question, or are we kind of stuck once the prefrontal cortex is formed? Are we just done, or is there more to be had? CDT says there is more development and evolution that adults can experience over time. And how CDT defines it is through this lens of what's called meaning making. And so it really shows us how through lived experience,

Jason Scott Montoya (02:03.387)
Ha

Julia Starr (02:28.2)
adults can change what meaning they're making about the world and about themselves in the world. And it's a framework to see where you might be on, they almost have this hierarchical path that distinguishes different stages of development through adulthood.

Jason Scott Montoya (02:46.217)
Yeah, so like if you were to just, you know, we're gonna kind of focus on a part of that journey. There's these sort of these five different stages and the third stage is called the socialized mind or level three, depending on who's writing about it. And then the fourth is maybe a phrase that people have heard more often is the idea of being self authored. So kind of dive a little bit deeper into those two and how they interact and what's the difference between them and then.

kind of introduce the idea of inside out versus outside in.

Julia Starr (03:17.536)
Yeah, yeah. to your point, so stage three is the socialized mind. And that's where most of us spend, you know, the majority of our, our adulthoods. And what it means is that we're creating meaning based on the social group that we're a part of. So for example, if you are an Episcopalian, like random example, that's our religion if people aren't familiar with it.

You would create your identity based on that association with a social group, a set of norms, a set of behaviors and values. And so your understanding yourself through that social group, the self authored stage, which is stage four is where you kind of intuitively based on the name, you're creating meaning about yourself in the world more from your own internal kind of locus of control. You're taking information in and then you're deciding on your own what meaning that has for you.

rather than kind of eliminating that step of reflection and just accepting it as, if they believe that, then I believe that. There is that kind of pause of what do I think about this? And then you can go back into the world taking from it what you find to be true and then leaving things that for whatever reason through your lived experience you don't resonate with.

Jason Scott Montoya (04:32.969)
Yeah. For people that aren't familiar with the theory, you might have heard of the idea of like a midlife transition or maybe in a movie like a midlife crisis. So the transition from three to four tends to sort of encapsulate that. So how would you connect that maybe more colloquial idea to the transition?

Julia Starr (04:54.518)
Yeah, I mean, I think when people start to realize that they don't have to take on all the beliefs of the groups that they've affiliated themselves with, it can lead to somewhat of an unraveling. And it can put you into what people describe as this existential crisis, where it's like, is anything true? Like, I think it can really, you know, challenge you and challenge the foundation that you've been standing on because we operate in the world through making meaning. Like I go into a coffee shop and I see a barista smile at me.

and I say, okay, this is a friendly person. There's all these conclusions that we're coming to about the world that we're in. But if you have a challenging experience to that of like, they smiled at me. Do they want something from me? There's so many different ways to interpret what's happening to you every single day that it can, yeah, to the midlife crisis, if you've oriented yourself to the world through these assumptions from your social groups, that's a pretty easy, stress-free way to be to a degree.

And then when you get into the self authored space, it's like, I need to, I need to be more thoughtful. I need to be with myself and this, you know, we'll probably get to this in terms of how I work, but it can be challenging to take the time and energy that's actually required to, to reflect and ask yourself, what am I feeling? What do I think? It's not something we're necessarily taught. So it's actually a new skillset. and it can lead to kind of that moment of what

Jason Scott Montoya (05:51.275)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (06:02.174)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (06:19.398)
what is what is true. And that can be pretty destabilizing until you get back to some solid footing and a connection to yourself, I would argue is what gives you that. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (06:21.341)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (06:28.723)
Yeah. So we'll dive in more and more into that, but before we do, how did you even discover this? For me, I feel like it was just providential or accidental, a miracle of sorts. And when I met it, when I intersected with it, I was like, this is what I've been looking for. How about you? did you first discover it and how did you respond when you first heard about it?

Julia Starr (06:43.061)
Mm-hmm

Julia Starr (06:49.142)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (06:57.088)
Yeah, yeah. I was in kind of a seeker era of my life when I came upon it. I had left management consulting. So I had worked for a firm called BCG out of undergrad. And I had my own quarter life crisis really when I decided I wanted to leave that career path and find a new path for myself. And I ended up first at a grad school studying integrative health.

And long story short, ended up deciding I actually wanted to go a little bit deeper and I wanted to really understand how do we make meaning of the world? Like that was the question that I came to without knowing that CDT is a literal framework for, you know, demonstrating that. And so I was looking at other grad schools and I came upon the Harvard Graduate School of Education, which is Robert Keegan's home base. And he's an academic who

Jason Scott Montoya (07:30.463)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (07:48.512)
you know, is behind the constructive developmental theory immunity to change. And I thought I need to go to where this body of knowledge was created and resides. Yeah, I needed to go there. So I took a leave from one grad program applied to Harvard, got in, went out there. And I had the opportunity to study with the professor who's teaching the curriculum now, Deb Helsing. So that's kind of how I encountered it. It was more of like, I had these questions and then I came upon.

Jason Scott Montoya (07:56.524)
Yeah. The source. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Starr (08:17.814)
this academic who is answering them. I will also say, and we can talk about this later too, I studied religion in undergrad and I studied South Asian religion, Hinduism being one of them. And I found a lot of parallels between some of that philosophy and CDT. And the fifth stage, the self-transforming mind, to me is a state of enlightenment, which this is a more spiritual conversation.

Jason Scott Montoya (08:21.257)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (08:26.889)
Yeah. Okay.

Julia Starr (08:47.51)
But I felt that I had encountered this way of describing human evolution in religious philosophy prior to meeting CDT. So I already had that frame of understanding our evolution. I just hadn't seen it in a Western academic setting. And I work with very linear logical people who really want data and research to back up how we're working together. And so I was like, here it is.

Here it is. This is the evidence behind what I felt I already knew through other self-knowledge and also study of some religious philosophy.

Jason Scott Montoya (09:16.105)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (09:26.771)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. I can relate to that in terms of like, I think from my own experience and other people that I've talked with that have discovered it, there is like this sense you kind of get pieces and then this sort of the formal theory kind of pulls those pieces together in a sense. In the book immunity to change by Robert Keegan, he cites, there's a section in the book who recites some research on the leader, on the levels, the maturity levels.

Julia Starr (09:41.867)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (09:55.263)
from the theory in, I think, in the executives. And that research was actually done by Keith Igel. And so Keith Igel is how I discovered constructive development theory. He's got a leadership development program here in Atlanta area called the Leaders Lyceum. And I had a friend that was shooting a video at their facility. And so that was just like the chance encounter that I discovered, what is this place we're shooting at? And then I learned more about it. And they ended up becoming a client and I've had Keith on the podcast and stuff. So yeah.

Julia Starr (10:25.631)
Wonderful. And is Keith who coined the, can I just ask, is Keith the one who coined the phrase or distinguish between adaptive challenges and technical challenges? Does that ring a bell to you?

Jason Scott Montoya (10:27.199)
Now, you? Go ahead.

Jason Scott Montoya (10:36.895)
So the way, yeah, well the way, he talks about lateral and vertical development, so he has those phrases, but the one you mentioned, I would have to look at it. So I actually.

Julia Starr (10:44.674)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (10:52.546)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (10:54.707)
So Keith wrote a book called The Map. So if anyone wants kind of an entry level to constructive element theory, this is it. But I'd have to look in the book and just see if that's the phrase he uses or not.

Julia Starr (10:58.228)
Okay, yes.

Julia Starr (11:08.987)
It's actually Dr. Ron Heifetz. I just looked it up in a book on my end. Yeah. So he's somebody else that has inspired. So I'm actually, so this is in an immunity to change book, but Robert Keegan is quoting him, but he distinguishes between technical and adaptive challenges. Have you heard that framing?

Jason Scott Montoya (11:11.705)
Okay, okay cool. Yeah, and what's his book?

Jason Scott Montoya (11:20.056)
Okay, okay

Okay.

Yeah, I mean, I would have seen it in a Unity change when I read it, but I don't know if I've heard it elsewhere. So, yeah, guess define it little bit more for people that haven't heard it, what it is.

Julia Starr (11:31.659)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Julia Starr (11:39.968)
Yeah, I would love to, I think it's a good, it's yeah, it's helpful. So a technical challenge is one that can be solved through the acquisition of more information. So a technical challenge is like, I don't know how to build this Excel model to predict, you know, revenues five years from now. I can Google that I can ask my friend, like once I get the information, I can build that model. And adaptive challenge is one that no additional information can solve, but rather an awareness of your

Jason Scott Montoya (11:53.833)
Hmm.

Julia Starr (12:07.458)
setting and an ability to communicate is what will solve it. say a team is really unmotivated and you, have the goals, they have the tools, but they're not making progress. That's an adaptive challenge that for the manager or the leader, they need to both understand themselves and understand the people that they're working with in a different way than they do now. But usually that involves active listening. It involves reflection. It involves conversation. And so

Jason Scott Montoya (12:10.483)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (12:21.172)
Mm.

Jason Scott Montoya (12:29.235)
Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

Julia Starr (12:36.076)
things like constructive development theory give us a step-by-step process to actually experience adaptive evolution versus technical evolution, so to speak. So I think it's if someone's listening to this and they're like, I have all the information at my fingertips, I still can't solve my problem, whether it's about their leadership style or achieving a certain target or having a better relationship with their husband or wife, you know.

Jason Scott Montoya (12:45.107)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (12:58.083)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (13:02.742)
that's probably an adaptive challenge. And it's just useful to even know, okay, at least I know what kind of challenge I'm facing. Now, you know, maybe ITC or immunity to change could be a helpful next step of evolving to meet the challenge. But yeah, I think it's a good distinction to be aware of.

Jason Scott Montoya (13:05.343)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (13:08.734)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (13:18.729)
Yeah. So you mentioned just the dynamics between from a spiritual connecting that to the material world through this theory. how did it, when you intersected with it, was it simply just a download of that information or did it actually help you transform in any particular way when, as you understood it?

Julia Starr (13:45.534)
Mm hmm. Yeah, it both, you know, is super I'm a very practical, tactical person. So I knew it would be really useful for the people that I work with. So I felt very excited about the discovery from that perspective. I also had to be coached through immunity to change in order to, you know, graduate from my master's degree. So I had no choice but to evolve. And it did help me and it helped me in the I have forever.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:05.471)
Yeah

Julia Starr (14:14.71)
been very similar to my clients attached to external achievement to validate me internally. And so that was a big immunity that I had, which we can talk more about that, but something that really influenced my decisions and also, you know, is a deep fear of mine of being inadequate. And the way that I got beyond that was looking for external markers of success. And so that was kind of what my immunity to change map was all about. And that's an ongoing process, but it helped.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:37.652)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:42.413)
So you actually had to do it for yourself as part of that course? cool.

Julia Starr (14:45.159)
I did. Yes. Yes. Classmates, we coached each other. So we like went back and forth and had to meet and were the client. so I have I have some familiarity with my own immunities. Yeah, we all have them. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:49.279)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:57.428)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean that was similar when I went through the Leaders Lyceum program that Keith offers, that's similar. It just wasn't an academic setting, but it was, I had to go through similar exercises as did others. And they call it a growth gap tool, but it's similar to the immunity to change exercise, so yeah. Now, when you,

Julia Starr (15:02.946)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (15:10.69)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (15:23.487)
When you talk about just that idea of being outside-in defined, achievements from the external defining you, giving you that meaning and validation, I immediately thought of the opposite version of that is actually pioneering or moving in a direction that those same people would invalidate you. In the sense of...

Julia Starr (15:28.994)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (15:50.101)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (15:52.253)
like actually moving towards a vision and values that, as you kind of say, that kind of give you more alignment, actually has a risk. There's a risk in your social circles to stepping outside of the accepted, whatever the accepted things are. Talk a little bit about that and maybe how that connects to what you were saying.

Julia Starr (16:01.538)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (16:07.202)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (16:14.593)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (16:18.272)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's intricately connected. And I think most of our maps, most of us as humans to just talk more broadly outside of even the ITC perspective, we have, we're social creatures and that goes back to our survival instinct. So if you're the outsider, like back in the day, you're not getting resources, your family's not protected. Like instinctually, we don't want to be the odd one out. And

Jason Scott Montoya (16:43.337)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Julia Starr (16:45.94)
And for good reason, know, back to like a survival instinct. We don't want to be left without resources. There is a real risk. Yeah. So that's a big part of our wiring. And the good news is that today in our modern era, we don't actually, we depend on people for social connection. And that's very important. And also we're so mobile. We can find new communities. You know, if you don't feel like you belong in the Episcopal church again, I'm not Episcopalian. I'm just like, choosing that.

Jason Scott Montoya (16:48.691)
Yeah, there is a risk, a real risk.

Jason Scott Montoya (16:54.911)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (17:12.851)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julia Starr (17:13.768)
If you feel like you don't belong there, you have the ability to join a different church. You have the ability to move to a new town. There are different options available to us today. So we don't have to operate in that frame of mind, but it's still there in our subconscious. There's a lot of fear when we feel like we're going against the grain, so to speak, of our existing community. And so when you do make a decision from the self-authored mind,

Jason Scott Montoya (17:34.771)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (17:42.326)
when you say that doesn't make sense to me, but this actually makes more sense to me, there's going to be a lot of friction. Unless you're truly enlightened and you can, you know, exist in the source of love, you will feel, which most of us are not in that place and definitely not permanently, you're gonna feel fear. And so I think that's also why so many of the greats actually say their secret is feeling the fear and doing it anyways. Because that is back to our human condition. We feel that friction.

Jason Scott Montoya (17:48.255)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (18:12.032)
when we leave an established group or a community. And and in order to be in alignment with ourselves and the self authored place that we might get to, that's a necessary feeling and experience. So if anyone's listening and they're like, it feels really uncomfortable to me right now doing what I'm doing, that discomfort is not a sign that you're doing the wrong thing. It is often the sign that you are doing the right thing. And eventually, because we live in such a modern connected mobile world,

Jason Scott Montoya (18:36.946)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (18:41.888)
you will actually find a community that affirms the things that you've chosen to do. And that's the beauty too. Like you don't actually have to go it alone, but it will feel uncomfortable when you're like taking steps one to five, let's say onto this new path that you might've uncovered.

Jason Scott Montoya (18:50.655)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (18:57.311)
Yeah, and it comes from the oddest of places. I'll give kind of a specific example. So I'm a freelancer now. I had a marketing agency for about seven years and grew it and hired people and da da da. And I ended up transitioning from that to freelancing. But a lot of business owners have a hard time with freelancers because they want freelancers to run their freelancing the way they run their business.

Julia Starr (19:26.978)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (19:27.067)
So they'll say, hey, Jason, why aren't you hiring people to do these things for you? And I said, well, I've been there and done that. That's not what I want to do. so that tension can, in a lot of cases, it might just be like them trying to give me their advice, although it's not relevant. They're trying to help. So it's not necessarily a hostile thing, but they just have a hard time with that dynamic because they've sort of chosen a different paradigm.

And that can manifest in a variety of different contexts. That was just one that came to mind. so you talk about the idea of solar preneurship. so, you know, dive into that a little bit.

Julia Starr (19:54.306)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (19:58.72)
Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, totally. Yeah. And I just wanted to share like my own example, which is so funny to look back on when I left consulting, when I introduced myself to people, I think I introduced myself as XBCG for like a year after leaving consulting, because that was still my primary safe identity. And it carried a lot of meaning with it. And I did not have my own

Jason Scott Montoya (20:18.195)
Yeah

Julia Starr (20:28.552)
safety, you know what I mean? Like in terms of where how is my ego going to be protected? How do I feel good? I didn't feel good enough about myself on my own with that identity to fall back on. And it was so I reflected on that later, where I'm like, how long did it actually take me to get to the place where I was good with the decision that I had made, because I was able to make the decision, but then to actually be in like a new space where I had created a new foundation for myself, it took me about a year.

Jason Scott Montoya (20:30.82)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (20:39.732)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (20:53.79)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (20:57.257)
cause I would identify myself that way. And, know, that's also part of the world we live in. There are certain things that are just validated, but I think, I think it's a beautiful thing that there are more and more people doing their own thing. And my clients who are willing to take the risk and start their own business or join a startup or pivot industries and people are pivoting more frequently in their jobs. Like, I think we are more, we are accelerating faster and faster total toward a self authored world where there's less fear.

Jason Scott Montoya (21:00.372)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (21:13.631)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (21:25.47)
you

Julia Starr (21:26.964)
around doing things that make the most sense to you. think the pandemic accelerated that a lot where people, things just didn't work for them anymore. Like employment just didn't work anymore because they had to take care of their kids at home or, you know, they weren't able to maintain the lives that they wanted to. So I'm optimistic that our, yeah, Yes, yeah. And I hope that the self authored component of the pandemic where it

Jason Scott Montoya (21:37.426)
Yeah

Yeah.

And we're still having to, yeah, people are still having to process that even though it's four years past pandemic, yeah.

Julia Starr (21:56.3)
forced a lot of us to make the decision that made the most sense for us individually at that time. I hope that that validation of the self authoring our choices will continue. I think it's hard because again, the social pull and getting back to the office and there are other things that kind of reinforce the socialized mind. But I do think there was a little bit of a step change that happened for society as a whole toward more stage four thinking.

Jason Scott Montoya (22:10.408)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (22:24.79)
due to the pandemic, which just flipped all of our social groups on their heads. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (22:30.399)
Yes. No, I relate to that idea of our society is going through that transition. And it's very chaotic, for sure. And I think one of the things I realized, I don't know if this is your experience too, but when I shut down my company in 2014 and transitioned to freelancing, that was a big, I was going through that transition. I was hugely disruptive, chaotic, ultimately just super fruitful. And so...

When the pandemic hit I was expecting to have to go through another transition But it turned out at the transition I had already gone through had prepared me for the one that was coming How about you? How did you feel about that when the pandemic hit?

Julia Starr (23:09.314)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (23:14.186)
Yeah, it was so interesting because I was actually running a different business called Rise, which was a community for women in early career in male dominated spaces. So I felt very strongly about creating like back to the community piece. Like if you, because I felt working in consulting in a, you know, more male dominated industry, more male clients, etc. That I didn't fit in and that almost work. I mean, it did work against me. Like it created an additional

Jason Scott Montoya (23:18.782)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (23:34.228)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (23:42.292)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (23:43.734)
burden that I was carrying, kind of always rectifying like, I belong here? Was in the back of my mind. Even though I did well, I got promoted as quickly as I could have been. Like all the external signs were saying, you're doing great. There was this additional burden. And so we don't have to get into Rise too much, but that's why I built Rise. had 850 members, we were in 15 cities and we were doing in-person pop-up events. So the women in the male dominated offices could actually have the community to see,

Jason Scott Montoya (23:55.913)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (24:02.035)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (24:08.947)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (24:12.596)
Yeah, we belong here. I see you doing the same thing as me. My experience does not need to be a burden that I'm trying to resolve all the time because I actually have my companions here in this space in Rise because they were from different companies connecting with each other. So I ended up shutting that business down mid summer. So like August, 2020, we shut down because most of our events were in person. That was our primary membership driver. I was a solo founder and I was burning myself out and you know,

Jason Scott Montoya (24:20.457)
you

Jason Scott Montoya (24:33.062)
wow.

Yeah.

Julia Starr (24:41.846)
There was just a lot, there was a lot there to consider. We can talk later about, you know, when you choose to move forward with the business versus shut it down. But then I started working just individually with one-on-one clients and that fall, fall of 2020, my business like exploded and has been my individual career pivot business. And that's been since that point, you know, booked and busy. and for me, that was like, I didn't do the transition pre pandemic. did it like, because of the pandemic.

Jason Scott Montoya (24:43.508)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (25:05.096)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (25:09.311)
so you did it at the same time. Wow. Yeah.

Julia Starr (25:11.422)
Yeah. so, so for me, that was really valuable to be pushed to go back to just me serving my community. but I still, you know, I really believe in the mission of rise and, and the idea of creating community for those who are feeling that what we just talked about, like the socialized, the self authored, like, how do you give people the safety to step off the track or stay in a place that feels so in conflict?

Jason Scott Montoya (25:22.732)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (25:32.5)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (25:37.545)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Julia Starr (25:41.186)
with them. So I love that there are some other startups building in that space. So I think it's, I hope someone continues to build that.

Jason Scott Montoya (25:43.753)
What the?

Yeah.

I mean, do you feel like the group thing was like a launching pad for you to do, like to make that transition? Like if you hadn't had it, would it have been a lot harder or maybe not even have happened? Like were they necessarily tethered together?

Julia Starr (26:06.402)
So I wouldn't say they were tethered next, because I was coaching for a few years before I built Rise. So Rise was kind of like an evolution of my coaching. But I will say back to my personal immunity, I did have a value that I was placing on my individual coaching work that was less than building a scalable startup. Like to be a founder of a startup at scale to me was more valid.

Jason Scott Montoya (26:12.895)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (26:29.606)
Okay.

Julia Starr (26:34.466)
and worth more praise and better than running a solo business for whatever reason. think because it receives more publicity, I was in this Harvard incubator, like it was sexier, there was more attention given to it. So I think being forced to really consider, again, back to do I want to do this? Does this make the most sense for me? Is this the best way for me to create the impact in the world that I want to?

Jason Scott Montoya (26:41.267)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (27:03.522)
and saying, no, at this time it's not, was me forcing myself to let go of the thing that was giving me safety, that was proving my worth. Julia's building this startup. That makes Julia worthy of love and respect and admiration or whatever it might be. I had to go through that again. Like I did it once leaving BCG. I did it another time. I was working in a family business that I left. That was another moment where I had to self author. Shutting down Rise was the self authoring moment. So it's not.

Jason Scott Montoya (27:09.993)
Yeah, yeah, okay.

Jason Scott Montoya (27:15.677)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (27:27.347)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (27:33.054)
It's hard to totally unwire, but to be aware of what's driving our decisions and give ourselves options outside of that and give ourselves the validation that we're craving from whatever socialized choice we're making is like, I think a big part of my secret sauce of being able to pivot as I've learned new information about what's best for me.

Jason Scott Montoya (27:35.123)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (27:41.715)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (27:55.524)
So connect that with us to the idea of inside out versus outside in. And you're really focusing on the inside out with your clients and the people you coach and the leaders you coach. But they're probably at that moment where they maybe want to make that transition, they're thinking about it, maybe they're in the middle of it, maybe they need help on the outside of it. Connect those dots for us.

Julia Starr (28:00.13)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (28:20.576)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So I really what I do is help people build that relationship with themselves and the self knowledge that gives you the foundation to be more self authoring. So for me, I don't even necessarily talk about immunity to change or CDT explicitly with every one of my clients, but that's what we're doing is shifting from stage three to stage four. And I do it through core values and strengths. So

I help people to just get in touch with themselves. What do I uniquely value? What am I uniquely good at? And just even the pause of taking a step back from, I work with a lot of people like myself, like external achievers. They've been on the track of what is it that's hardest and most valuable to achieve? That is what I am going to do without really thinking about why.

Jason Scott Montoya (28:54.846)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (29:01.983)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (29:17.524)
Why are you motivated to do that? Do you enjoy the process of doing that? And so I give people the opportunity to pause and just reflect too on their lives so far, what's driven me up to this point and based on what I've learned, what do I want to drive me moving forward? So we do that from values and strengths. And then it's a framework and a kind of, I don't try to facilitate a quarter or midlife crisis, but sometimes that happens when it's like,

Jason Scott Montoya (29:22.014)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (29:44.849)
Julia Starr (29:45.842)
Now let's talk about your core values and how much you're living in alignment with them now. And they might be like, shoot, not, not much, you know, like, this is why I feel burnt out. This is why I feel so angsty every day going to my job, my prestigious, well-paying job that I should be very grateful for, but I'm not. And so that's the moment where they get to say, okay, typically I want to be more in alignment with my values. I can't live like this anymore. And then we talk through what.

Jason Scott Montoya (29:55.077)
Yeah

Jason Scott Montoya (30:05.492)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (30:15.85)
What could that look like? Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (30:18.809)
And I imagine they establish clarity on their values and have clarity on their strengths and they want to move towards that. But there's a giant ugly troll under the bridge. So how do you help them through that step?

Julia Starr (30:33.93)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the ugly troll in my world is usually the judgment that they assume is going to come upon them if they change. Yeah, so.

Jason Scott Montoya (30:38.193)
Uh-huh.

Julia Starr (30:49.762)
I work with very linear, logical people. So a lot of it is repetition and a lot of it is intellectualizing. Okay, what are the feelings that come up for you when you think about leaving? When you think about telling your network that you're becoming a freelancer or whatever would be the next step for them that they're hesitating on. And a lot of times that step is actually networking. So when they have to actually go out into the world and tell somebody that they're looking for a role in this industry.

Jason Scott Montoya (31:00.66)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (31:19.626)
or that they're considering leaving this job or this career that they've spent 15 years building. I work with doctors and lawyers and people who, it's a big deal. It feels very scary and very risky to give that path up not only for themselves, but everyone who's ever validated them along the way, typically friends, family, colleagues. And so...

Jason Scott Montoya (31:22.153)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (31:30.953)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (31:40.767)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Julia Starr (31:45.302)
This goes back actually to CDT and immunity to change, whether they know it or not. We design what in that context is called a test. So we think about what is the scary thing? What is the risk that you're perceiving and how do we test that in a very safe context? So if it feels really scary to tell your wife that you're leaving the firm, okay, could you tell your best friend who you know is not going to judge you?

But can you like say it out loud to somebody? And then what is your fear? they're going to judge you. They're going to view you as less. How do we collect information about what they actually think? Like, how do they respond? Can you ask them some questions along the way of like, are you surprised by this? Like, do you think this is a good idea? And getting the feedback from the people in your life is typically the best way to neutralize those big scary trolls under the bridge.

Jason Scott Montoya (32:24.593)
Yeah

Julia Starr (32:40.716)
Because it's a, you know, it's a belief, it's an assumption. If I do this, then the world ends. So how do you do that in like baby, baby steps and see that typically the world doesn't end. Typically people are actually very excited and inspired by you taking those risks. And probably more people than you know, in your network have something like that, that they also want to do. Who knows what it is, but there's something that they're not doing because they're afraid of what other people might think. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (32:41.167)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (32:45.203)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Jason Scott Montoya (32:55.262)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (32:59.608)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (33:04.531)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (33:07.987)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really good and inspiring and I hope someone that hears that is inspired too. And I think that idea of like start with a small safe context and then kind of build out, grow from there. And like don't actually go to the bridge where there's like three trolls and they're really big. Maybe don't go to that one first, maybe start with a small.

Julia Starr (33:26.39)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (33:31.682)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And there's something about knowing who to ask for advice from too. Again, like most people that I work with are very well supported by mentors, by sponsors, by people in their workplace that maybe have guided them up until this point. But if you know what they're going to say, and you know they're not going to approach this with curiosity,

Jason Scott Montoya (33:35.365)
One, they're not actually a troll, it's just a bridge. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (33:54.015)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Julia Starr (34:01.494)
that might not be the first person that you go to. So you might have to approach this in a different, and the one other thing that I wanted to share from what I do is I do a friend survey with all my clients. So that's.

Jason Scott Montoya (34:05.427)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (34:13.663)
like a 360 feedback kind of thing.

Julia Starr (34:16.852)
Kind of, but it's just to friends and family and people who know you well. It could include colleagues, but it doesn't have to. And there things like, if you had to pay me today to solve a problem for you, what kind of problem would you pay me to solve? If you had to describe me to someone who's never met me, what are the three words you'd use? If you had to put me into a different job tomorrow, what would that job be? Like, and getting that feedback from your community is amazingly liberating.

Jason Scott Montoya (34:19.539)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (34:28.667)
Okay, yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (34:33.204)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (34:38.16)
Yeah

Julia Starr (34:42.964)
It's unreal. And like, how often do we have the chance to ask the people who care about us most that love us and know us the best, what their perception of us is, it's just so validating, especially for people who are tending to be harder on themselves. And, know, looking for their weaknesses, like let some other people build you up. And it gives you again, it just starts like, yeah, the work is slow, slowly opening doors. It's not the coach who says I will change your life overnight, like

Jason Scott Montoya (34:43.059)
Yeah. huh.

Jason Scott Montoya (34:53.321)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (35:13.086)
No, without cursing. No, that's not possible. Yeah. It's a long repetitive process. Yeah. And it can happen. Like you can have these light bulbs that are like, wow, I see things differently quickly. But in terms of changing your behavior, like it's going to take three months minimum, probably 12 to 24 months to really be like, I'm in a completely new life where I actually feel.

Jason Scott Montoya (35:13.373)
Yeah, it's a long, repetitive process, yeah, and a lot of practice.

Jason Scott Montoya (35:24.564)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (35:37.235)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (35:39.254)
different and understand myself differently, but it starts with these baby steps. So you like you have to start, but the expectation that it's going to be like, like that is just unless you're maybe taking some like psilocybin or some something which I don't have experience with, but maybe there are things now that you can do that can rewire your brain more quickly. But in the line of work that I do, it takes a little bit of time. Not a lot of time, but it takes some time. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (35:43.73)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (36:02.109)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think that's the work you're doing, the work, when I went through the Leaders License Program, I mean, one of the things that they talk about it, they kind of frame it like, hey, in two years, you're going to grow as an adult. What if you could compact that down to six months, right? And that's kind of what you're trying to say is, like, we can accelerate this by leaning into these dynamics that actually lead to growth.

Julia Starr (36:15.276)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (36:27.571)
versus avoiding them, which is what we might want to tend to do when we're in that level three stage.

Julia Starr (36:31.158)
Yes. Yes. And you cannot grow for a lifetime too. If you don't want to, you can stay in stage three for your whole entire life. I think it's like 15 % of the population's in stage four and then like less than 1 % is in stage five. So that means that what 85 % of the population is in the socialized mind. So that's huge. exactly. Yes.

Jason Scott Montoya (36:36.468)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (36:47.956)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (36:53.075)
Yeah.

But that's our opportunity to step into that leadership vacuum that we now have to actually en masse become leaders for our communities and work and home and family.

Julia Starr (37:05.386)
Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that that is truly the opportunity. I love that you said that because just like, yeah, what if you were one of the people in the self authored mind in your organization, you might be one of a handful of people who are operating that way, but your ideas will be better, you'll be a better leader, you'll be able to relate to people better because you're outside of your own socialized perception, you can see more different viewpoints and perspectives.

Jason Scott Montoya (37:32.788)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (37:34.078)
It's hugely powerful if you can get there.

Jason Scott Montoya (37:36.745)
Yeah, so on that note, of help us understand, you say there are benefits to vulnerability and curiosity, which I agree. A lot of people may say, well, no, no, no, no, no. So make a case for why those are important.

Julia Starr (37:45.184)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, it all goes back to the self-knowledge piece. And so I would say vulnerability and curiosity, I think when people hear them, especially vulnerability, they think with somebody else. Like I need to make myself vulnerable to somebody else, like in a relationship, in a team, whatever. But I would say vulnerability starts between you and you. And that's almost the most vulnerable you will ever be.

Jason Scott Montoya (37:56.863)
Okay.

Jason Scott Montoya (38:09.416)
Okay.

Julia Starr (38:20.66)
is when you can acknowledge to yourself who you actually are and how you're actually operating. So, so yeah, vulnerability to me is just honesty. And it has to start with you being honest with yourself about who you are, how you're making decisions, how you're motivated. And it's important because if you can't be aware of where you're starting from, you can't make progress from there. Like you're kind of just operating with make believe.

Jason Scott Montoya (38:24.657)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (38:49.768)
if you're not able to share first with yourself and then maybe with other people over time, like, hey, this is where I'm at. This is my experience. And it is when you're vulnerable, you allow other people to be vulnerable, even if you're just sharing your own story. That's why, you know, testimony in a church or in like an AA meeting or in so many personal development spaces, like testimony is a big part. It's not someone telling anyone else.

Jason Scott Montoya (38:56.606)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (39:16.384)
what they need to do is just them sharing their own experience. And that is if you're ready and you feel like you've gotten to the state of like, I'm at least as honest as I can be with myself about myself. Now I can share that story with somebody else. You don't have to facilitate their growth, but you sharing your vulnerability gives them the moment to be like, maybe I need to get honest with myself about myself. So that's, you know, it's all part of.

Jason Scott Montoya (39:40.5)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (39:43.924)
the evolution. you don't know where you're starting from, can't go anywhere. Period. That's what it comes down to.

Jason Scott Montoya (39:47.795)
Yeah. Well, and just from my own experience in terms of sharing your story, you know, there are just so many people in my life that have guided or mentored me that they shared first. They gave me permission to share second. And that was very empowering at times when I couldn't have shared first. I needed someone else to kind of open the door of vulnerability so then I could express and share.

Julia Starr (40:03.02)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Julia Starr (40:11.009)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (40:17.085)
my own insecurities as a way to know like this is a safe place to share. Because sharing in the wrong place in that time could just shut me down further, right? So, yeah.

Julia Starr (40:22.274)
Okay.

Julia Starr (40:29.767)
Yeah, and that's also what coaching is about. You know, I, I do my absolute best to create safety for the people that I work with. And, and I even tell people in the intake, what I'm looking for is someone who can be honest with themselves. Because if you can't be honest with yourself first, you can't be honest with me, if you can't be honest with me, we don't even know what we're working with. But

But it's rare, you know, we do live in a bit of a violent society and a scared society. And when you're scared, if you see a threat, if you see something that doesn't align with your experience, the knee-jerk reaction is to shut it down or diminish it or discard it or criticize it. And that's so damaging to your point of like, if you're vulnerable with someone who's not ready to hear that, that is incredibly traumatizing.

Jason Scott Montoya (41:00.703)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (41:12.915)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (41:24.538)
And I don't think that we can overlook how much trauma people experience period and then how rare it is to actually be in a dynamic where you can be vulnerable and you can admit your flaws. Like you can talk about the things that you're most worried about being judged on. Like that's, that's incredibly healing. If you have a space where you can say, Hey, I did this thing that I'm not proud of. And you're met with someone who says that's okay.

Jason Scott Montoya (41:29.172)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (41:38.59)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (41:42.996)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (41:54.685)
Mm-hmm. We love you anyway. We accept you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Starr (41:55.636)
and you have been carrying all this shame about it. Yeah, we love you no matter what. It's okay, me too. Like that experience, I wish everyone on planet earth could have that experience of sharing what it is that they feel worst about, about themselves. And it was met with love. Like that would heal the world, not to get hippie, but like that would truly heal the world. And I just also want to acknowledge for anyone listening who's tried that and not gotten that response.

Jason Scott Montoya (42:02.846)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (42:08.51)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (42:12.701)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (42:16.979)
Yeah. yeah.

Julia Starr (42:24.958)
It doesn't mean you can't get that response from a different source. And just finding the spaces where you can get that response is almost our job to put ourselves into environments where we're going to be met with love and understanding and support and encouragement. It's not easy to find, it exists and everyone deserves to have that experience. And that's what we all want. Like no one's unique in like needing that space. We all need that space, right? We're all human at the end of the day. So.

Jason Scott Montoya (42:35.487)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (42:40.607)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (42:48.211)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (42:53.683)
Yeah, well, and I got the opportunity to interview a man named Darryl Davis, and he's a black man who reaches out to people in the KKK. He goes to their rallies, and he does exactly what you are describing with them, with sort of these people that essentially everyone's discarded. And I think he's got like several hundred KKK robes that members have given him as they left the group. And it's just very inspiring. And I'm thinking, man, if he can do that.

Julia Starr (43:03.436)
Wow, wow.

Julia Starr (43:11.394)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (43:17.643)
Wow.

Jason Scott Montoya (43:22.151)
I can do at least something in that direction, you know? Be that for those people that seem, I mean, it's not that he's accommodating or saying what they're saying is right, and he brings in truth, but he also has that grace side of it. And so that's pretty inspiring.

Julia Starr (43:25.154)
Totally.

Julia Starr (43:42.21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

It is.

Jason Scott Montoya (43:48.367)
So is that an, is, yeah, go ahead.

Julia Starr (43:48.866)
Yeah. And I would, I would just also like, that's an incredible example. That's so inspiring. And it makes me pause and think what, what could I do that would be that transformational and the people that we interact with every single day, like again, our spouses, our kids, the PTA president, like the person who's parking behind you, the barista, like they all have.

Jason Scott Montoya (44:13.427)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (44:17.001)
Something, yeah.

Julia Starr (44:17.612)
that they're carrying around. And I think we're all very, very quick to judge, and especially if we're kind of dysregulated and stressed ourselves. So if anyone's listening and hears that, like, whoa, I can't do that. The thing is, can do that. You can do that level of holding space for anyone in your life today, and that can heal. And it can also feel so good. You have to tap into that peace and understanding in order to give it to somebody else. So it can happen.

Jason Scott Montoya (44:27.06)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (44:32.041)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (44:37.982)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (44:43.774)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (44:46.384)
in any context.

Jason Scott Montoya (44:48.807)
And I think that the contrast to what you're talking about, so you're talking about vulnerability and honesty. The opposite of that is kind of closed off and dishonest or self-deceived. Talk to us a little bit about that and perhaps even the transition between that to the ideal state, away from that jadedness towards a place of healing.

Julia Starr (45:01.378)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (45:10.55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. The people that I encounter are typically oriented to that socialized group. So they're not, I don't think that most of them have had the experience of being honest with themselves to know that they're really shutting that down. They just haven't even gotten there yet. And they think that how they've been making decisions.

makes total sense until maybe, you know, the last year or something where they've started to be like, this is hurting me. So it can't make sense anymore. And, know, I'm burned out. I don't have the right relationships, whatever it might be. Yeah, are kicking in. So they have to investigate it. But again, just to have that, that I think empathy is also hugely important for us to be able to be like, it's, you know, we make decisions with as much information as we know.

Jason Scott Montoya (45:53.619)
The real world consequences, yeah.

Julia Starr (46:08.94)
So I think that shutdown, it's a very natural progression actually to end up in a socialized group. That's where we learn norms and values and acceptable behaviors and have social connections. And so I think most people are there, but then they never have the push to expand beyond that. And so I wouldn't say.

Jason Scott Montoya (46:15.091)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (46:27.391)
you

Okay, yeah.

Julia Starr (46:34.134)
Sometimes I think it's just this slow awareness of, there's something else here that I'm not acknowledging because I don't know how to acknowledge it in a safe way. But I think it takes our, we have to grow up first. We have to be in the socialized group and experience the world typically through the safety of a socialized group. Like, I'm going to go on a mission trip with my church. And so I'm going to go to whatever country. And then after I go there, I'm like, wait, like, were we helping? Were we hurting? I don't know. But like you had to go there with your social group.

Jason Scott Montoya (46:42.942)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (47:03.958)
to get the information to force you to become a little bit more self-authored. So I do think it's more of a natural progression. And I really don't like to have the, not that you're doing this, but just in general, the CDT formula, it is a bit of a hierarchy. And I think that can be a little harmful or almost like, I'm gonna look down on the people who are stuck in stage three. I don't think that is accurate. I think it's a very natural evolution and the social groups.

Jason Scott Montoya (47:04.051)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (47:25.36)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (47:32.862)
of our lives are very important. So I think I might be speaking to something other than your question, but I think the people who come to me are just starting to feel like, there's something else here. There's some other knowledge, conclusion, drive, desire that I don't quite know what to do with, because it doesn't fit in where I've been. But it's less of having shut themselves down to that point, and it's more of just being at that stage where they're ready to go to whatever's next, but they don't know how to do it. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (47:33.607)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (47:39.199)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (47:50.899)
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (47:58.462)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. I do, Jennifer Garvey-Burger actually does a great job of talking about the stages in a way that doesn't create a superiority dynamic that I think you're talking about can manifest. And I think something to keep in mind is that each stage has its own limitations and we can learn

Julia Starr (48:12.94)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (48:29.193)
from each other in different stages, things within our, wherever we are. And so a blind spot for someone in a level four might be a different type of blind spot than someone in level three versus someone in level two, but they're all gonna have the blind spots. And so to forget that, you know, would be a big deficiency, I think.

Julia Starr (48:35.554)
Hmm.

Julia Starr (48:44.13)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Starr (48:52.042)
Yeah. And to that point, there is a level five. There is a stage beyond level four, which is called self-transforming. And this is where I think it gets more into the, like the philosophical side, but what stage five recognizes is that we are interdependent. So self-authoring is I'm independent. The self-transforming is recognizing, no, I'm actually interdependent. I am an independent being. And I also rely.

Jason Scott Montoya (48:55.069)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (49:12.221)
Yeah.

Julia Starr (49:21.758)
on everyone else in the world. Like I take as much. Yeah, go ahead.

Jason Scott Montoya (49:24.125)
Yeah, and I would say including people we may not think we are dependent on, particularly people that are very low. I'll just use America as an example. There are a lot of products and things we create in China that are probably created by people at the bottom of the class system. And we're dependent on them, right? We may not even know it or see it or think about it. But just to give a quick example, like...

Julia Starr (49:30.464)
Yes.

Julia Starr (49:42.69)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Scott Montoya (49:51.241)
I may think I'm like independent and I can live my own life and I don't need those people, but I do. They're part of me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Starr (49:56.544)
Yeah, yeah. And even totally even the people you drive on the highway next to every day, like we depend on them respecting us and respecting the rules of the road and not taking a violent action. You know, it's where we rely on each other and every single aspect of our lives. We could not do this on our own. Maybe some people could survive out in the woods. I don't know you've ever watched Alone the like survival show at the end of the day, people can be out there for a long time but

Jason Scott Montoya (50:05.139)
Yep. yeah, all those at.

Jason Scott Montoya (50:15.635)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (50:21.348)
Yeah

Julia Starr (50:24.424)
usually they come to like, I just want to see my wife. I just want to see my son. I, I life isn't worth it if I don't have people here with me. And so that interdependence can't be overlooked.

Jason Scott Montoya (50:27.326)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (50:37.523)
Yeah, so kind of talk a little bit more about that because that autonomy narrative, I think is a prominent one in America, but also pretty destructive, I think, in a lot of ways.

Julia Starr (50:45.666)
Okay.

Mm hmm. Yeah, I think the autonomy narrative probably the biggest harm it does is it gives us like an excuse to avoid resolving relationships. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (51:02.786)
Interesting. Okay, yeah, that's an interesting take. Yeah.

Julia Starr (51:07.262)
And I mean, just to expand on it, I think that we have this independence bias, obviously, and like pull yourself up by your bootstraps in the States and the Lone Ranger out like making, seeking his fortune out West or whatever. And yeah, I think, I think for me, relationships are where I grow the most friendships, romantic relationships, familial relationships, because they force you to be honest with yourself about who you are and how you're acting.

Jason Scott Montoya (51:15.134)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (51:19.199)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (51:30.431)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Julia Starr (51:35.404)
Like if you just live in a bubble and you just read books and play video games and like all the, love to read fantasy, like I'm guilty of escapism, just like the next person. But if that's a hundred percent where you live, like I do think that's an avoidance. So, so the autonomy narrative, I'm not sure, like, like the healthy aspects are okay, I can exercise critical thinking and come to my own conclusions.

But I think that we miss a lot of what is very life giving, which is community, recognize inter interdependence, helping and being able to ask for help. So I think in general, that's a, that's a, a non generative narrative of you need to do it on your own or I I'm going to do it on my own. think that that hobbles you more than anything. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (52:19.881)
Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (52:25.23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, I guess as we wrap up here, let's say someone's listening to this and they're like, wow, I really connected with Julia. I'm interested in learning more. How can I learn more? How can I work with you? Tell us about that.

Julia Starr (52:42.57)
Yeah, yeah. So I would love to connect to anyone who's resonated with this conversation. Even if you have another question about it or want some reading materials, like please reach out to me. I'm on social media at Julia star coaching on Instagram, tick talk on LinkedIn. I'm active on LinkedIn. Feel free to connect with me. I just love being connected to people who are also thinking about the world in this way. And if you want to work with me individually, I have a, you know, an individual coaching practice one-on-one and

I take people on every single month depending on availability. if that's something someone's interested in, just reach out to me and I'll send you more information about that.

Jason Scott Montoya (53:22.591)
Cool. What are your final farewell thoughts for us as we leave the listener or the watcher on their merry way? What do you want to tell them?

Julia Starr (53:35.114)
Yeah, I just want people to be excited about the opportunity to learn more about themselves and live on earth for the brief moment that we have. I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to, to quote unquote, do well and achieve the most. But I think there is, there is a lot to be said for enjoying the opportunities we have and the people that we're with and to not overlook.

how nourishing those things are for us and how much they do fuel our achievement, but that achievement alone cannot sustain a life. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (54:11.305)
Yeah. Well, Julia, thank you so much for sharing your life and your expertise with us. We appreciate it.

Julia Starr (54:17.43)
Thank you for having me. Yeah, this was wonderful. Thanks so much for bringing me on.

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