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Written by Jason Montoya. Posted in Inspirational People.

Taking Responsibility in The Sea of Uncertainty — With Jonathan DeYoe

In this Inspirational People interview, I'm speaking with Jonathan DeYoe, founder of Mindful Money.

Jonathan has been teaching practical beliefs and helping people create order out of financial chaos for 25 years. He's a Lutheran seminarian turned Buddhist academic turned financial advisor, now bridging money and life. He believes anyone can experience a vibrant, financially successful life by developing a few important beliefs and following a few simple practices. He does his best work teaching these beliefs and practices in spaces where love and money overlap, including this podcast. Our mutual friend Toby Bloomberg (whom Jonathan recently had on his podcast) connected us and we quickly came to recognize how much we share in common.

Watch or listen to our conversation below where we discuss Jonathan's backstory, systems, mentorship, how he understands the universe, his passion for personal responsibility, and his kind spirit.

Discussion Highlights

  • Understanding and making sense of agnosticism
  • Questions religious beliefs and how Jonathan shifted in his worldview
  • Consequential pragmatism and its connection to Buddhism
  • The importance and impact of a worthy personal example
  • How the double life of Christians brought about Jonathan's disillusionment of the church
  • The importance of recognizing what we cannot know
  • How truth tethers into a worthy example and pragmatism
  • Leaps of faith and its connection to pragmatism
  • What it looks like to take responsibility for our lives
  • Attachment to social change versus embracing personal responsibility
  • The power of helping others and providing value
  • What does it mean when people speak of "the universe"
  • Paying authentic kindness forward
  • Acting from intention versus acting reactively
  • How jealously distorts how we see
  • Hard work and taking work to the extreme
  • Having self-compassion toward the younger "me"
  • Being intentional and moving toward the vision
  • Reprogramming underlying beliefs
  • Wasted energy in the financial world
  • Taking responsible action for future "you"
  • Loneliness devoid of thinking and reflective solitude
  • Advice for the broken jaded person

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Additional Resources

Unedited Transcript

Jason Montoya 00:00:00 In this inspirational people interview on the Share Life podcast, I'm speaking with Jonathan DeYoe. Jonathan, say hello.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:00:07 Hey, everybody. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me, Jason.
Jason Montoya 00:00:10 Yeah, yeah. Uh, Jonathan has been teaching practical beliefs in helping people create order out of financial chaos for over 20 years. He's a Lutheran seminarian turned Buddhist academic turned financial advisor, now bridging money and life. He believes anyone can experience vibrant, financially successful, vibrant, financially, successful life, um, by developing just a few important beliefs and following a few simple practices. He does his best work teaching those beliefs and practices in spaces where love and money overlap in today. That's this podcast. So our mutual friend, Toby Bloomberg, whom Jonathan recently had on his podcast and I'll link to in the show notes, connected us and we quickly came to recognize just how much we share in common. So, Jonathan, welcome. Tell us about you and your story. And, um, I'm curious, uh, just as a little sidebar, you know, with your Lutheran background, um, have you read, uh, any of Dietrich Bond hoffer's, uh, books?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:01:13 So, I have, I have not, uh, read them like in entirety. I'm sure I've read snippets here and there, but if that's, yeah. 25 years ago, and I was only in the Lutheran Seminary for about 13 minutes before I learned that they lost my scholarship, so, oh, got, I, I switched to Buddhism very quickly, um, at the beginning there. So just, I, I was raised in Rapid City, South Dakota, you know, we were poor. Uh, I wanted stuff. And so I started working. I was 12 years old. I ended up going to school in Montana. I started out studying finance. I mean, if we're honest, I went to Montana to ski, but I started out studying finance. Cause you had to have a, you know, you had to have a major.
Jason Montoya 00:01:51 Yeah,
Jonathan DeYoe 00:01:51 Yeah. I switched to, uh, philosophy and religious studies. Um, took a, took a detour through English literature, found out that wasn't me. Fell in love with philosophy and religious studies. So I've read, you know, every philosopher in, in, in, in Jewish history, Christian history, Buddhist history. Just spent a ton of time on that and, and had great professors and great
Jason Montoya 00:02:13 Teachings. Who were some of your favorites along those, uh, categories?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:02:17 Um, God, so I,
Jason Montoya 00:02:19 Or are <laugh>.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:02:21 So it's, uh, I loved Martin Buber. Uh, I loved, um, uh, I loved all like, like the rationalists. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm a very rational person, I guess, but I've sort of followed that, that path. Yeah.
Jason Montoya 00:02:35 Um,
Jonathan DeYoe 00:02:35 I had somebody who was quoting to me the other day, um, Hobbs. And so I was like so excited when this, when a high school student was like, quoting Hobbs to me. I'm like, oh, that's freaking cool. You know, let's talk about Hobbs and Locke and let's get into it. Right. But, uh, yeah, uh, uh, they're, they're very, in high school, they're very specific on what
Jason Montoya 00:02:49 They're, yeah. So would you consider yourself a classical liberal as well in that sense?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:02:53 Probably.
Jason Montoya 00:02:53 Aha. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:02:55 Yeah. Life is hard. It's what you do with it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so switch switching to philosophy, you know, I, I, I graduated with that and then I had a professor who said, Jonathan, obviously you like this, you should go to grad school. So I looked at a few grad schools, uh, grad school brought me to Berkeley, California. Um, and I, as I said, I came out to study theological seminary at the Pacific PLTs, Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary. Yeah. But they didn't have the scholarship. So they, I had the letter here, I'm gonna go to school, and like, ah, you know, we had a bad year last year. So they said, you know what, go to one of the other schools. There's nine schools, you know, Christian schools, a Buddhist school, a Jewish school, and so just go door to door, find a school that can support your scholarship.
Jason Montoya 00:03:36 Yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:03:37 I did that. The Buddhist school could support the scholarship. So I, I ended up studying comparative religion and sort of tilting towards Buddhist academics. Okay. Loved
Jason Montoya 00:03:44 It. Follow the money. Is that what happened, <laugh>? Say again? Follow the money.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:03:48 <laugh>. Yeah, follow the money. I didn't have a choice. The
Jason Montoya 00:03:50 Scholarship, I couldn't
Jonathan DeYoe 00:03:50 Afford it. So, um, so, uh, yeah, I, I've been medi from that point forward, I've been meditating and I've been, I've been practicing, uh, Buddhism, you know, I'm, I'm quote unquote saved. Like I went through the whole catechism and the confirmation process, and I'm, and I'm baptized and I, and I would say that I believe in God and, and that I, I, I sometimes wonder, I'm very curious. I'm not sure of anything. Uh, I, you know, it's, it's like agnosticism with a tilt towards practical Buddhist practices with a tilt towards a belief and a higher power, but not really being defining what that is, um, because I can't. And so
Jason Montoya 00:04:34 How do you, yeah. So well, tell me more about the agnosticism in terms of how you kind of, how do you, uh, contextualize that in the sense of, well, you could probably go a couple different directions, but I'd be curious, um, how do you define agnosticism? Just the word itself? Let's start there.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:04:52 Well, I think of agnosticism as, as an admission that we can't know. Like, it's not atheism. It's not, I don't believe it's, I can't, I can't prove an outcome. I don't know. I simply can't know. Okay. Um, and I think that's honest. Like, I think unless you've had some kind of a direct experience, which I know people that have and, and or claimed to have had or, or have had, have had. And, and I have never had that. Like I've, I was raised in the Lutheran church. I gave the Easter, you know, sermons. I, you know, was very serious, serious enough to, my grandfather was a minister, Lutheran minister, um, I have, when he died and the family got together to argue about who got what, uh, I said I would just like his sermon notes. And I got this whole box of his historical sermon notes, and I have his desk chair. Like, those are the two things I wanted, the things I saw him in. Yeah. Was the desk chair working on his sermon notes and giving the sermons. And, um, yeah. And that was important to me. And I, you know, I went on the study at Lutheran Seminary, so that was the intention. It never actually became a thing, but that was the intention. And so I, I was raised in that, and I believe in that, but around about, you know, my second year of college studying philosophers, I started questioning.
Jason Montoya 00:06:03 And what were questioning, were there any specific kind of things that you were questioning? Or was it more like just a sequence of sort of a domino effect of, of beliefs or ideas?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:06:13 So it, I mean, we're gonna get, we're gonna get totally off topic and, and I love it. <laugh>. So, so, so in high school, I had a good friend of mine, Peter Chang and Peter Chang. Yeah. Was, you know, he was Chinese. His dad worked on oil rigs in the Middle East. Um, he wasn't a Christian. Um, he probably never ran into Christianity, you know, as a kid growing up. And it wasn't part of the, part of their lives. And he was the best of us. Like, he was the sweetest, most helpful, um, you know, put, put, put himself second, always help people out. And so, I was talking to one of my, one of my pastors at the time, cuz we were talking about, you know, you, you go to heaven, you go to hell, you know, you gotta believe you have to be saved. What? You know, all this. And he was like, no, no. Yeah. Peter would go to hell. And I'm like, there's, that makes absolutely no sense to me like that I cannot, I'm not a buyer. Like I, I cannot believe that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so that was like
Jason Montoya 00:07:05 The first thing. What did, what did Hebel, was he a, an atheist even? He was a good person.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:07:10 I'd say he is atheist. Yeah.
Jason Montoya 00:07:11 Yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:07:11 Okay.
Jason Montoya 00:07:11 He's probably an atheist. So you're looking at him and going, man, he's such a good person. How could he, yeah. How could he be condemned? Yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:07:18 Right. And, and, and that, that opens up the whole question of does God actually condemn? I mean, re really is that, and I don't know, it seems to me like the all loving, you know, figure that, that, you know, embraces except, you know, the, the Christ figure. I don't, I just can't believe in that, in the whole concept of condemnation. I, I, I just, I have a hard time with it. Um,
Jason Montoya 00:07:41 Yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:07:42 A and it's not practically applicable in any way. Right. Okay. I, I can't, there isn't a result that I will see this
Jason Montoya 00:07:54 Eye. So there's a pragmatism that you kind of latch onto that's really important. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like, and Buddhism, and that's where the Buddhism kind of comes in, is, okay, now there's this practical outlet to actually, uh, have this type of, the type, type of, to facilitate the type of consequences I'm interested in.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:08:10 Yeah.
Jason Montoya 00:08:11 Or that you value
Jonathan DeYoe 00:08:12 Yeah, yeah. That I value. Exactly. Um, but that's, and you know, there's obviously hundred other little things, little experiences here, little experiences there. Yeah. And I got a really close friend here in Berkeley, California, who is deeply Christian, who I talk to on a regular basis. And, and yeah. And I go, and I, and I see the joys of his life and his belief, and I go, I kind of wish I had that. Like, I kind of wish that that was still part of my life, but it's really about how he interfaces with the world. And I look at him and I go, this guy's truly living his Christian beliefs. Yeah. You know, he's, he, you know, he's like Peter Chang, like <laugh>. Yeah.
Jason Montoya 00:08:56 He's, he's the, he's the other side of the coin. <laugh>.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:08:58 Yeah, exactly. He, he really is that loving, loving, loving. Let me help you out. What can we do to get through this together? Kind of a guy. And he's just, just a great person. Right. And I, and, and it's, at the end of the day, it's the, the evidence is in the human. Um, and I really think a lot of the evidence, you know, the way a person behaves in the world, that's, I guess it's more humanism, right? Buddhism happens to be like, more, more humanistic, maybe.
Jason Montoya 00:09:22 Yeah. Well, and it sounds like there's a, a component of worthiness. Like, show me that, show me that what you believe is true by, by living what you believe. Right? Yeah. I think we could probably both agree that there are a lot of Christians that claim, uh, yeah. That faith and don't live it. And, and, and I, and I say that in a, like, we all have sort of our own hypocrisy in our shortcomings, but there's some that we might say, uh, uh, maybe sim symbolize that hypocrisy more that we would, we would like.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:09:51 Yeah. And that was, that was actually one of the, one of the defining elements was me going to the church and seeing these kids in the church and, you know, seeing them go through, uh, confirmation and, and, and, and behave one way on a Sunday, and then, and then spending time with them on the soccer field or, you know, uh, at a tournament or in Boy Scouts. And they're just completely different people. And I'm just, that's, it's, it was so hypocritical to me, and I was like, yeah, I represent, if you're gonna represent what you believe, you gotta sort of toe the line.
Jason Montoya 00:10:27 So how, how does Buddhism reconcile hypocrisy, hypocrisy, either in its in, in, as a Buddhist in yourself or in the hypocrisy of others? How, how does it explain that?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:10:38 So Buddhism doesn't, there isn't a, there isn't a, um, punishment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there isn't a, you're not trying to save the world. I mean, you are ultimately at the end of the, at the end of the path trying to save the world. But it's, you, you go through betterment bettering yourself by understanding how your mind works, by understanding how you react to things. And so it's really a, a, a practical guide to living in the world. And then the idea is, and I'm not, you know, I'm not an enlightened being, so I can't claim knowledge of this, but the idea is as you get to see how you react, you can see how you're not different from this other person. You can begin to have compassion for where they're coming from and their beliefs and their decisions and, and, and the things that they choose to do with their lives.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:11:29 And you can be, because you're more compassionate, because you, you're more open, because you understand your own internal dialogue. You know, we, we have this tendency of thinking that our successes are caused by us, and our failures are caused by our circumstances. But then we, we reverse that. When we apply it to other people, their successes are caused by their circumstances. Their failures are caused by them. And this, this, this, this understanding that we do that is really critical to, to being compassionate. It's really critical to, to living in a better world. Um, yeah. Uh, uh, and, and the whole idea of the Bhi vow is, I'm gonna help, I'm gonna help other people realize that before I, you know, snuff out, go to Nirvana, become enlightened, whatever that thing is. And so Buddhism actually grows with stages as well, right? There's a, there's the original Tere Vaden, uh, Hiana, which is a, which is sort of a pejorative term in the Buddhist world, um, which is, you, you, you meditate, you meditate, you meditate, you become, you come to realization, you are enlightened and you're done.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:12:34 You know, you're out of the wheel of samsara. You're not reborn. Um, but that develops over time in different schools of Buddhism. And it becomes, well, you can choose, you become aware, and when you become aware, you can choose to stay and help others or to sort of exit samsara this world of suffering. Um, and if you choose to stay and help others, you become a <unk>. And you're, you're, you're, you're teaching, you're doing. And I, it's, it's, it's probably just something that's inside me. But I look at this, I look at, I look at, and this is where mindful money comes from. Like the idea is I've become very successful and I'm transitioning in my own life to helping other people get very successful. I've always been helping. But now it's not a focus on, on helping people grow their wealth. It's helping people begin to build their wealth. Um, they don't have it that they're starting where I started long time ago where, you know, family life, just like, sort of like mine, sort of starting in poverty.
Jason Montoya 00:13:33 Yeah. So, so I kind of, I guess, uh, kind of pull three threads back together and maybe wrap 'em up a little bit here. Um, the agnosticism, it's interesting you say that, cuz I, I, I watched, uh, list watched, listened to this recent conversation who had, and Charles Murray was, was in it. And that was one of the things he expressed. And he sort of talks highly of Christianity, but he, he's an agnostic, you know, kind of wants to believe, but doesn't believe, you know, <laugh>. Um, and, uh, and he said that kind of something similar, like I, I I want us to sort of have the humility enough to say that we can't know, or we, or it's really hard to know some things or in some cases, um, we just may not be able to know. Right? So that's something that, that that related to that.
Jason Montoya 00:14:20 Um, the, uh, um, the other, the other thing is you talked about the kind of the pragmatic consequences, right? What are the, I'm doing something and there's a benefit and it kind of ties, I think, into the money and maybe even your rationality to some degree. Um, and, and then you've got these two friends, right? There's sort of these two sides of this coin. How do you, how do you, you've got the sort of the worthy model. You've got the pragmatic, um, consequences. And then I would sort of introduce the third thing, which would be the truth. Like, what is true or not? Like, how, how would you introduce truth into that kind of paradigm that you've sort of shaped here? For us?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:15:01 The, so the, the, um, my graduate work was in sort of phenomenology and epistemology. Like, how do we,
Jonathan DeYoe 00:15:11 How do we come to know the world around us? And I think it's really, and, and maybe that's what <laugh>, maybe this is a thing that keeps me from understanding truth. I, I don't think that I have a good grasp of the world around me. Like just, just think about the simple thing like colorblindness and just consider how what causes colorblindness may infect everything. Like we actually don't know what is around us. We Yeah. And one can argue that we can't know. So that the, the, the fundamental belief on anything has to be one of humility has to be one of, I could be wrong. Um, and, and I find myself, I'm in Berkeley, California, and I come from the middle of the country, and I find myself in discussions about politics where I can be on the opposite side of either argument. I, I, I can, I can understand the arguments from both sides, and I can be upset with both sides and say, <laugh>, you know, you really don't have the full grasp of the other side's argument.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:16:11 And until you have the full grasp of the other side, you can't argue with them like you're arguing from false, false pretenses, right? So you have to understand first. And the reality is, we can't, I, I, who was it? Um, David Foster Wallace at, uh, he did a, and you probably, you probably heard the, the 20 minute, um, um, uh, Kenyon College. He did the, he did the, uh, speech at Kenyon College in like 2007. And he called it, it's, this is Water. And it is incredible. I love it. Um, but he talked about this idea of you knowing what to focus on. You know, you, you, you can't know this, we all swim in the water. It's the wa this is water. This is water. We all swim in this water. We don't know how it affects us. We don't really understand it. And it's, the tendrils are deep. Um, and it makes us judgmental and it makes us, and our brains are biased. And because of that, we can't really know. And so humility becomes critical to our, um, decision process, in my opinion. Like other people Yeah. Don't feel that way.
Jason Montoya 00:17:16 Well, I, and so what I think I'm hearing from you is there's a, there's a limit to what we can know. And I, I think about the, the end of a book I read by, uh, Kevin Roe called One True Life, and he compares Christianity with stoicism. And at the end of the book, he kind of gets to this point, like, like at some point you have to sort of take a leap of faith, whether it's stoicism or Christianity, or, or in, in his argument, it can be any tradition that you're gonna leap, but you have to sort of take that leap of faith. And so I would connect that too with the pragmatism, which is, I think the pragmatism is a, uh, a small leap of faith. Like instead of leaping my entire life towards a tradition, uh, pragmatism would say, well, you know, maybe save, well, you know, use the financial, maybe saving a certain amount every month has a particular benefit to me in the way I feel. And then in my future, like, that's a little leap of faith I could take, right? So I do it. And that might sort of open the door to a larger, more comprehensive understanding of a financial, uh, mindset. Right. How do you, would you agree with that or disagree, or how do you feel about my connecting those dots? <laugh>,
Jonathan DeYoe 00:18:24 I love it. You know, we, we operate so much from what do I want right now? It is a little bit of a leap of faith to say, well, I might want something, you know, 20 years from now, maybe I should think about that. You know, and that's, yeah. One of the ideas of in financial planning, the, the reason that financial planning is itself so powerful is because you're introducing yourself, your today's self to your future self. You are thinking through things that might be important to you 20, 30, 40 years from now. And if in thinking through what might be important to you 30 years from now, makes you change your behaviors, you may not be alive 30 years from now. So it has to be a leap of faith, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you have to choose your uncertain future self over your current want, need, thought process.
Jason Montoya 00:19:16 Yeah. So how does that, so, okay. So that I, I, I see these tendrils between kind of your story and how it connects to the finances. Um, kind of bring us, bring us along in terms of where are you today and, and, and does any of this like directly tie into the, the type of things that you do?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:19:39 So my, um, so for 25 years I worked, you know, uh, helping people protect wealth and grow wealth, people that already had wealth. Um, and I was gonna bring my brother on to be my ceo, and we were gonna do this thing together, and we were gonna add an element of our business that was gonna be education and helping people build wealth, helping people, you know, start a small businesses, understand the importance of a side hustle. So understand the importance of owning their outcomes instead of, you know, allowing their outcomes to be, you know, thrust upon them. And then he died in 2021. And so, by the end of the year, by the end of 2021, I had merged my firm into EP Wealth. EP Wealth now helps me with the client services that I've always had. And I kind of split my time between, uh, legacy client services.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:20:31 I'm not, I don't add new clients anymore, but you know, what I'm doing is I'm trying to find avenues that I can provide education and support and coaching for people to build something themselves. Yeah. Um, and for me, that's, that's the practicality. That is, it'd be great if we would socially solve some of these problems. We are not going to, like, there is no place on earth where it's just roses and it's great. It doesn't exist. If you choose one path, you have, you have negative outcomes, you choose a different path, there's negative outcomes. And so at the end of the day, what I recognize is it's on us, like it is, if we want different outcomes, we have to do different things. So that requires support, coaching, education, and intelligence around financial decisions. So I'm trying to make that available to people that are really locked out of the world of financial advice. Yeah. Um, you know, and that's, that's kind of what Mindful money is, and I was gonna do it with a much greater reach with the help of my brother who knows how to do all that. But now I do, I host my podcast, um, and, and you know, I, I, I blog on a weekly basis and I write stuff and I have courses, and that's, that's, I can take my knowledge that I've developed for a long period of time, and I can offer that practically to folks and help them launch and succeed personally.
Jason Montoya 00:21:43 Yeah. So, so what's most interesting to me there is would you say that we're, like, in terms of what you're talking about and the financial types of wisdom and tools and resources you're trying to give, and the individual, like taking personal responsibility, you're essentially saying you are on your own. No one's coming to save you, you've gotta sort of put the burden on and, um, and take, take ownership of your destiny. Is is that, is that a good way to summarize it?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:22:22 That's without judgment. Yeah. I mean it, what I'm, I mean, you're
Jason Montoya 00:22:28 Not, I'm looking at saying, I'm not saying like Yeah, yeah,
Jonathan DeYoe 00:22:31 Yeah. I, I, I think it's how do you get better outcomes mm-hmm. <affirmative> Well, we can, we can agitate for social change, which we do. Like we should, we do. Yeah, that's good. But that's not gonna help the individual on the ground. Now. It's something that we might change over time, and 20 years from now, it'll have an effect, and that's a positive thing, and we should work towards that. But there are things that we know work, there are things that we know mm-hmm. <affirmative> can benefit us today in terms of our own lifestyles and our families and, and, and, and being able to give back to our communities. And there's things that we can do. And I've had so many great mentors that, that, that kept me in this business that, that, that helped me realize you could do it a different way. That, um, and at the same time, wall Street's kind of a, it's kind of an ugly place. Like the, the, the message we get are almost always sales. Um, the media attention around it, it's not helpful at all. Um, uh, and so how do we, how do we break through that noise and how do we help people on the ground? And I think we can, right? I, I think that it starts, like you say, it starts with a mindset. It starts with how do we set ourselves up?
Jason Montoya 00:23:33 Yeah. Well, and is there, um, um, let me ask two questions. The first would be, what's, why are people attaching to, you mentioned the social agitation. Hey, we need to have a better system. We need to have a better country, and systems and institutions that sort of take care of these things. Um, why do people lean that way versus taking ownership of their life? Like, you're, like, you are encouraging. Why, why do they, why would they rather have the other option?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:24:04 Like I said, we, we talked about it earlier. We have this tendency as humans to when, when we're successful, we attribute that success to our abilities and intelligence. When we're not successful, we attribute that lack of success to our circumstances or the things that happen around us or our parents, or something like that. Okay. Um, and the reverse is true when we look outside of ourselves. So I, I guess I'm not, I'm not suggesting that there's, there's room for social agitation there. There's room things can get better. I'm just saying, you can't rely upon that as a way to improve your circumstances. And we should all work to make things better for everybody. Yeah. And if you really want to make things better for you, you can't wait for that. You, you have to actually do something different today for you. And that's not, yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:24:58 That's not gonna take away from something else. It's not a zero sum game. Me working hard Yeah. For myself and my family isn't removing anything from many. In fact, the, for me to do really well myself, this is my dad's lesson, he said this over and over and over, Jonathan, if you want to have the most things in your life, the best things in your life, you have to help other people get the best things in their lives. That is the pa the path to your financial success or your personal success is helping other people. Is providing more value, is doing mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, doing your work more intelligently to, you know, working harder, working longer, but but doing it for the benefit of somebody else.
Jason Montoya 00:25:32 Yeah. When, well, to kind of pull in the other thread, when does, when do you do that, when it becomes impractical for yourself? Or do you mean you do it well, like in some ca so practic, like, you're kind of describing the situation where if you give to others, it'll come back around. Maybe not directly, but indirectly, but what about, what about giving when you know it's not going to come back around? What would you say to that? Well, about,
Jonathan DeYoe 00:26:01 So I, so I wanna, I, I wanna talk about, I I'm not saying give to others.
Jason Montoya 00:26:06 Yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:26:06 Like in our economic system, in order for me, so let's, let's look at what I do for a living, or what I've done for a living for 25 years. Um, people pay me substantial amounts of money to, to help them do financial planning and invest their money. Yeah. And I've done very well for a long time. And most of my wealth is because of my business. Yeah. It's not because of my investing acumen. My wealth comes from having a business where I help other people with things that they don't know how to do themselves. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I got a really close friend of mine, he's a painting contractor. Um, he, he, he goes to your house, he looks at your house and he says, okay, it would cost $12,000 for us to paint the house, and then you hire him to paint your house. So it's, they're giving him money.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:26:46 He's giving them the service he knows how to provide. Yeah. That's what, that's what I mean. It's a, it's a, you have to, um, bring together something you love to do, cuz it'll pull you through the difficult times. Something you're relatively good at compared to your peer group, and then something that other people are willing to pay you for. Yeah. So it's not that you're, you're not giving your wealth. You're giving what your, what your, what your passion is and what your skills are, and you're receiving at the same time. It is a, it is in life a transaction now to the question of, you know, what about the times you're gonna give and not get anything back? I don't believe those times exist. Like, I think the universe is pretty efficient. I think that if, if, if Person X comes to me and says, John, and this happens a lot, they come to me and say, Jonathan, I don't understand this financial issue.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:27:33 You know, can you help me? And I help them and they don't pay me for it. Yeah. I think the universe recognizes that. And I think that my clients who do pay me for it, appreciate the fact that I do that for this person. You know, one off basis. Um, we, we teach a course. What I, what I noticed when I built the, the financial education courses, my clients who will never go through the courses, who have no interest in studying the stuff, thought it was the greatest thing in the world. They loved the fact that their advisor was building educational courses to help people out. I didn't build it for that reason. That was just a, it was just a nice side effect. So I did something good for the world, built these courses, we give 'em away for free. Um, and my clients were like, Hey, this is great. You know, I think this is so great that I think that my friend's advisor isn't doing this kind of thing. I'm gonna introduce my friend to you. Yeah. Right. So the universe has a way of compensating us for, um, things that we do that we don't expect compensation for, or that we don't, can't tie the direct compensation to. Yeah. Reciprocity works. Reciprocity
Jason Montoya 00:28:33 Works well. Yeah. I, I'd be curious how you, um, so when you talk about like the, the universe in that way, it does imply a, a sense of agency, which could just be the language and not, you don't mean that literally, but I'd be curious, like mechanically speaking, how do you sort of, like, what would be example of how that maybe unfolds? Just so I can make sense of how you're, because that's just a phrase I think a lot of people use and people use it in different ways and have different meanings. But I, I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:29:01 I, I use the universe because I, I don't know. I, I know what, I know that that's how it works, but I don't, I don't know if there's agency, if there's a, if there's a prime mover. I, I don't know if there's somebody that's saying, oh, Jonathan put all this stuff out of the world, so let's give Jonathan this thing over here. I, I can't see that happening. Yeah. I don't know. That happens. I know that it does happen. And, you know, I read the book Secret and I found it goofy and I didn't really, you know, buy it. But part of it's true, like, if you put good things in the world, good things come back to you. If you put, if you put good things in the world and you, um, resent it, ah, I gotta, I keep putting this good stuff in the world and nothing comes back and you're angry about it.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:29:45 That's not, you're not, you're not coming from the right place. And I, and that, that's, it kind of gets in your own way. And I, and I don't, I don't know how to judge that. I don't know how to, but I knew, I know in my own life and a life of many people that I've worked with by providing value, by, by creating something that other people want and by helping them who are willing to pay you and, you know, on the side helping people that aren't just being a good person. Yeah. Peter Chang is very successful. Um, and it's just cuz he's a good person. He's easy to work with. You, you like to support people that are nice. You, you like to have friends. I'm that way. You're that way. People are that way. I like friendly people. So if I sign someone's helping people out, I wanna help them out. It's just a natural, a natural thing for me. Yeah.
Jason Montoya 00:30:28 Yeah. So I think, I think the way that you're saying is you're almost saying there's, there's some dynamic, there's possibly some force that connects things and that's ha when I'm, when I'm being kind to someone, I'm tapping into this dynamic, um, which could literally just be authentic being Yeah. You would just be nice to me, authentically,
Jonathan DeYoe 00:30:47 Kind,
Jason Montoya 00:30:48 Authentic, authentically kind. Yeah. But you being kind to me and me wanting to be kind to you because you were kind to me, there's some dynamic that has to do with just who we are as humans and how we operate. Um, and, and how it all works. You're sort of open-ended to kind of ex how it, how it works. But there, there does seem to be at least a, uh, a fundamental assumption. A ba a belief or assumption that there's some, there at least is a dynamic. And I think that ties back into the practical thing was like, well, I was kind of someone and they were kind back. So I, I sort of have a proof of that cuz I've done it. Yep. It worked. Right. Does that make sense? Yep.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:31:24 Okay. Yeah. I, I don't have proof of the cause of it working, but I, but I have the evidence that
Jason Montoya 00:31:29 It works. I don't know how it works, but I know that it works, so I'm gonna, it works. Yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:31:33 It has worked for me and I've heard stories of how it works for others. Mm-hmm.
Jason Montoya 00:31:36 Yeah. So, you know, I like to talk about what it means to, to to live better and work smarter. And I think a lot of what you're describing is, is kind of encompassing that. So, but what, what else would you add to that? Or, or, or, or expand on that.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:31:50 I think, I think we touched on what I think is the first and the most important thing. And that's, it's, that's the authenticity. Like, it's gotta come from your heart. It's gotta be real. Um, I think intent.
Jason Montoya 00:31:58 So does, what does that, how do you define authenticity or sincerity? Like what would you des how would you describe it or define it?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:32:05 Your real values. And this is not you, you, it takes introspection. It takes, it takes, you know, thoughtful consideration away from the pressures of life. Like, it's very difficult to get somebody, let me back up. It's very difficult for somebody to understand their authentic goals, dreams, values, you know, purpose without when they're under pressure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cuz when they're under pressure it pushes them to action in a certain way. So, but if, if, if you start by, and this is, this for me is why I meditate, um, why I meditate, because when I sit down, I know what comes up. I know how my mind works, I begin to see, yeah, how this leads to this leads to this leads to this. I can see the patterns. And when you can see the patterns, you can begin to unwind some of the automatic responses. And it is the automatic responses that are inauthentic. Maybe they're authe, maybe you've developed it, maybe they're authentic. I'd say that most people, we just, you know, shoot from the hip in everything that we do. Um, and it's, it's a rare person that actually has, has unpacked that stuff for themselves. So that authenticity is really important.
Jason Montoya 00:33:18 So someone that's reactive, you're saying, unless they've intentionally de decided to be that reaction, they're um, they're
Jonathan DeYoe 00:33:26 Not being, they're not no one, no one intentionally is reactive right? That that's, that is dumb. Like why would you do that? It doesn't,
Jason Montoya 00:33:31 Well, I would, I would, I guess where I would push back is like if you're, uh, let's say you go to bootcamp cuz you're gonna go into war. You wanna be reactive in the battlefield. You trained without having. Right. So I don't know if that would be a helpful example or maybe you wouldn't think that would be reactive, but
Jonathan DeYoe 00:33:45 Maybe respons
Jason Montoya 00:33:46 Argue that maybe sort of say responsive versus reactive.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:33:50 Um, well, I, I, either word is fine. I, I would argue probably that that's not, I realize that it's necessary in the world. I don't wanna argue against the military. I, I'd love the people that defend us and all that kind of stuff. But I, I don't know that that's a positive example of, of, of, you know, humans behaving well. It's something we have to do. It's not something I like that we do. You know, you know what I mean?
Jason Montoya 00:34:14 Well, I guess you could kind of play a different, like I'm thinking like, let's say you got a professional kayaker and he's going down the Colorado River, right? Yeah. I'm thinking he's reacting to the, the water. So you could kind of use a non Yeah. Morally tainted version, uh, story if, if we needed. But, but he's reacting to the situation, but based on his training. Right?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:34:32 Yeah. That's, and that's, that's, that's different than your interpersonal reaction or your, so the idea is your brain, and this is, this goes, David Foster Wallace talks about this, what, what you focus on matters and, and where you apply your focus matters. And, and we so often don't control our own focus. We let our focus be taken over. We are led by our brains and by our re reactivity. And that's just primal. It's just our amygdalas working really, really hard. Um, and our frontal cortex not being engaged. And that is how we are most times. That is how the brain works. Yeah. Most of our choices and decisions are decided. Yeah. You know, as if we're lizards. Um, and then occasionally something comes to the frontal cortex and we actually think about it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the idea is think about it, be authentic, figure out what matters to you, and then pursue that.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:35:25 And then, and then it's the second part is like, be intentional about it. Make, make, okay, this is my target. What do I do to reach that target and then be intentional. Take action. You gotta be flexible, you know, you gotta gotta be willing to, you know what, that didn't work. Lemme try something else. That didn't work. Let me, lemme try something else. Yeah. Um, then compassion and non-judgmental, those are the Yeah. When you think about, you know, how, how do you live better compassion non-judgmental. And I think not being non-judgmental is really, really important. And that's the, that's the Buddhist coming out of me.
Jason Montoya 00:35:54 Yeah. Well it's interesting, I I just finished the book, uh, the Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Aaron.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:36:01 Hmm. Yeah.
Jason Montoya 00:36:02 And, um, the totalitarians are doing what you're describing, which is they are wanting us to op, they, you know, particularly the, the Nazis and the Soviet Communists. Um, and during World War II in that era, they are wanting people to act animalistically and they want to remove all thinking. Yeah. And um, so what you're describing, like, they're literally doing the opposite in term, and that is by design. And they have, they have different ways of sort of implementing and executing that. And it's very, um, but it's is almost the opposite of what you described since. Interesting that you, that you mentioned that.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:36:42 Yeah. Yep.
Jason Montoya 00:36:45 So let's, let's talk about mentoring. You've kind of given a couple examples. Uh, hit tip tips and bits here and there. What, what is the mentoring? How do you think about it? Is it important? Do you care about it? Is it a value of yours? Obviously you're doing it, you're, you're podcasting, you're helping people, even if it's also part of your vocation, it seems, you know, you're doing it out inside of your vocation and inside of it. You're on this podcast. Tell, tell me about mentoring.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:37:13 So I don't think I'd be here where I am if I didn't have mentors. Um, and I, I worry actually today that work from home mentorship is harder to maintain. It's harder to do. Yeah. It's almost, it was a natural thing 25 years ago, like starting in the office. You know, I had somebody that was teaching me how to talk to clients, uh, teaching me how to do the business, teaching me how to relate to my wife cuz I worked so dang much. You know, um, people that were, were very helpful men mentors in almost every aspect of my life. Um, and it's harder these days. Like I don't, I don't see it as much now, but there, you know, I I think it's critical. I think you have to have those relationships that have gone before you, that have experience before you to sort of teach you how the world works.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:38:04 Um, yeah. And many young folks I think push away the idea that these older, this older generation has knowledge that would be beneficial to them. And I think that hurts them. And I think that the work from home thing also makes it difficult. So it's, it's, it's a challenge today. Uh, I have, I've got a client who actually runs the mentoring program at the Cleveland Fed. Um, and it's, and I, whenever I have questions about mentoring, cause I'm, I mentor, but I don't, I'm never, I'm not trained as a mentor. I don't really know Yeah. What I'm doing. I'm just a, I'm just a guy trying to, to help people do their thing. Right. Um, and she's trained and she has a process and she, and so I talked to her about what's the process and how does it work. I think it's critical. I think, I think it's, my success probably stems from that. And narratives, like, it stems from mentorship and, and being, uh, uh, the story and the stories that I was told when I was a kid. I think, uh, my parents gave me some good stories. And, you know, that's, those two things lead to success for me.
Jason Montoya 00:39:01 Yeah. Yeah. What about, um, stories, narratives? Yeah. How do, how do you think about them? Are there any that really shaped you as a person or, um, that you think about or whether they're fictional or maybe real or personal or universal? Uh, tell me about stories.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:39:26 Yeah. Uh, well the, the big one, um, growing up, uh, to, to the extent that I'm successful, I, I think it's, I think it's drawn first from the people along the path. The professors that said, you like this, go study this in grad school, the, the, the, the people that kept me in business. And then the second piece, as I said was, was kind of a, um, the stories I was given as a kid from my parents, you know, before I really knew I was learning lessons, I was learning lessons. One of those lessons was, and this is what I'm trying to share with people that were raised, you're poor until you build your own wealth. You are poor. This is in the financial world. You're poor until you build your own wealth. If someone was raised like I was raised, you don't have anything until you make something happen for yourself.
Jason Montoya 00:40:15 Yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:40:15 That also works in relationships. You, you are poor at relationships until you work and improve your ability with relationships. Um, it's true of parenting. You, you've, when your child is born, you've got no freaking clue. And I was complete idiot when my, when my son was born. But you learn, and your wealth in parenting grows as you learn. So yeah, everyone starts off without knowing and they learn, um, no one is gonna necessarily help you do it. You may have a mentor, but you have to take the action yourself. Yeah. You've gotta, you've gotta do it yourself. So that's what my parents taught me. Like, you, if you're gonna make something of yourself, you've gotta get busy doing it. And I just, a story when I had a, um, I had a buddy that, uh, whose dad owned a, a warehouse and, and when I was 12, uh, he was, I was hired to work at this warehouse with my friend, uh, and he got, we were the same age, we did the same job, we did it together.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:41:13 We actually drove to and from work together on weekends and during the summers. And he got paid more than I did. And I didn't know that at the beginning. And I discovered it throughout the, you know, a month into it. And I said to my dad, this sucks. I don't wanna do this. You know, I can't believe this is happening. It's not fair. And my dad was like, well, let's think about it. You know, could you get another job that paid you, you, you're not getting paid as much as your friend who who whose dad owns a company. Um, but let's think about it. If you quit this job, could you get a different job that would pay you as much as you're being paid? The answer was no. I couldn't, like, the next job was McDonald's or something like that. And I, I couldn't make the same amount of money i, I made, I would've made a third what I was making, but I was jealous.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:41:57 And it was the jealousy that almost made me shut that off and say, say no to that. Um, so I had to just deal with the fact that I was getting paid less and then show up to work every day, do the same work, and recognize that no one's gonna help me do that. I had to think it through. I had to make the decision, I had to do it. Uh, and my dad's always said, you know, if you wanna, if you wanna live, well, you have to work hard first. You have to work hard first. And so that was one of those narratives I was raised with. And that's Rapid City, South Dakota work ethic. Yeah. You know, work hard, period. Like I'm still trying to unlearn how heavily I learned that one. I'm still trying to not work quite as hard as I
Jason Montoya 00:42:37 Did. Yeah. Taking it too far to the extreme.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:42:40 Oh yeah. I, I, yeah, I am certainly guilty of that. And it wasn't until my brother and I were different, it wasn't until he died that I sort of recognized that he was successful without the work ethic, without the same crazy work ethic. And he worked hard, but he also played hard and I didn't, yeah. I didn't do as much of the playing.
Jason Montoya 00:42:58 Would, would you relate that to the thinking, like you were going, going, going so much that you weren't thinking and so you were reacting and so you For sure. And then you just, you just go and burn yourself out, right?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:43:09 Yep. I had an automatic, you know, process that I was following and I didn't, I wasn't thoughtful about it. I mean, it was reinforced, you know, all the way through 25 years in the business. You know, every single manager except for one, um, said, work harder. You, oh, you wanna do better, work harder. You want to, you come in on Saturday, you want to do, you come in on Sunday afternoon? Like that. That was, that was the message you want to do better, work harder. And there's, you know, in, in the very back of my mind, there's always this tickle of fear. Um, so being raised with nothing and then building something, I'm always a little worried. You know, there's always this little fear that it can go away, that I could lose it. Yeah. So I have to, I've gotta stay hyper aware and hyper on top of it all the time, or, or it will be unbuilt and that's, yeah. That's, that is tough to shake. That is really, that becomes a permanent, um, fixture in the back of my mind. And that's the work ethic.
Jason Montoya 00:44:09 Yeah. What, what do you think, what do you think is the, the narrative that overcomes that?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:44:17 It's, it's a, it's a, it's a great question. I, I don't know.
Jason Montoya 00:44:23 I mean, I guess the one that comes to my mind, I dunno if this would be helpful, but that, that, um, maybe this ties into your authenticity and your question and your point about like, you're poorer until you build wealth.
Jason Montoya 00:44:41 If you can build wealth, then you can build it again. Right? And so if I'm authentic and I built it authentically, you know, then I should be able to do it. It's kinda like this idea, like, someone's really not as successful at like, let's say an entrepreneur. Maybe they had a success in their first business, but can they replicate success in the second business or the third business? And, you know, sometimes there should be failures. So there just might be a percentage, like a batting average. I don't know. What do you think of that idea as a narrative? Um,
Jonathan DeYoe 00:45:10 I, I think the first thing that I, I, I think that's, there's probably something in it, like having, letting your success inform your confidence about your potential for success. I think that's, I think there's something in that. I think that probably the thing going on is I have to, um, be a little bit more compassionate towards that little kid in me who mm-hmm. <affirmative> who wanted and couldn't have. And just kind of say, yeah man, it sucked. You know, it was really hard and you know, you're not there anymore. Um, yeah. And over time it's, it's been, I spent more time, I'm 51. It wasn't until I was really 45 that I was saving, you know, serious money. So it took me
Jason Montoya 00:45:55 A long time. What, what age did he say
Jonathan DeYoe 00:45:57 What? So 45, 43.
Jason Montoya 00:45:59 45. You're only six years in
Jonathan DeYoe 00:46:00 Then, right? I'm seven years into it. Six or seven years into it. And yeah. And I'm, I, I, I'm doing better than I ever thought I could do. Um, like I, you know, I'm doing really, really well.
Jason Montoya 00:46:12 Yeah. It's funny you say that cuz uh, the idea of the intentionality and, and sort of, um, being intentional and then moving towards the vision. I, I'll give you an example. I, when I started freelancing earlier on, one of the things I realized, you know, from my business days and then as now as a freelancer at, cuz I had a marketing agency for about seven years, was, um, I wanted some financial buffer because finance, uh, as a freelancer, you know, some clients pay you right away, some decide to pay you later, some don't pay you at all. <laugh>. So I didn't wanna have the stress of that reality. I wanted to create a financial buffer. So in my mind I thought, I want $15,000 in this cushion and that'll absorb any blows that come my way so that I can have the steadiness I desire <laugh>. And I was so surprised that it only took us a year to get there at the time. And part of it was like, oh, I set out a goal, we moved towards it and we got there pretty quick and we're also like paying down debt and other things. So it wasn't like the only thing we were doing. Um, but I don't know. What would you say about that? Because it sounds similar to what you're saying. It's like you've only been doing this six, seven years, but man, you had a vision, you went after it and you've been diligently pursuing it and it's happening. It's happened, right? What, what, what do you
Jonathan DeYoe 00:47:28 Say to that? So I think, I, I, so I absolutely, and I, and this, when you talk about, um, think about financial planning, what you're talking about is that emergency fund, you build the buffer, right? That's the first step. Cuz that gives you psychological space to, to do other things. Yeah. And that psychological space is huge. Um, what, what I'm, the thing I'm talking about, I I, in terms of the, um, the fear, so it's like 20, I've been doing this for 25, 26 years. 1996 is when I started doing it. Yeah. And, and the first 18, 19 years was just, well the first five years was learning lessons with different Wall Street firms. Then the next 18, 19 years was, we're were just, we're we're just, um, reinvesting, figuring out the process. You know, we got from, we tried this method of marketing, we tried this method of marketing, we tried a new, and then, and then over time marketing.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:48:17 Yeah. I was like, why am I marketing, marketing doesn't work. I just need to take care of clients and clients will take care of me. And it's, yeah. It's, it's releasing that and believing that. Um, and, and it actually, it totally happens. Like the, the, the word of mouth business is the most powerful thing you can create mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so any business owner out there can, can build that word of mouth thing. And, and, and the way you do that is by really taking care of people, really being honest, really being authentic, really being there, really showing up for anything that they need whenever they need it. Which is a lot of work. It's an insane amount of work. And so when, when Dave died, what I realized is I couldn't, I couldn't do the same level of work. I didn't have it in me.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:49:00 I wanted to do a little bit more, you know, have a little bit more fun. Cause I've been working so hard for so long. So I, I gave up the running of the business and just focused on working with the clients. Um, and I, I, I love that. I love not having to think about it. I love not having to think about hr. I I love just one client, one client at a time, and I love education and, and teaching and, and, and coaching and all this. But it's 20 something years of worry followed by 20 years of, you know, pay, paying for my own college and not having a lot of money when I was, my, my parents didn't really have a, an income from when I was three to when I was 15. Yeah. And so, so that's a long time in a very formative time of my life.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:49:53 Yeah. Where if I wanted a pair of shoes, I had to earn the money to buy them. Right? Yeah. Um, and I, I'm imagining that if I keep going forward for another five or 10 years and I'm compassionate with that little boy who wanted, um, I will get past the fear, but it's, it's still pretty, it's still pretty fresh. Yeah. The idea of I'm successsful, I, I had this, yeah, it's, I, I had a, I just, we were talking earlier before we went on, I had, you know, my lower back thing that happened, uh, last week, I went to see the acupuncturist. The acupuncturist gave me a bill and I was like, oh my God, that's expensive.
Jason Montoya 00:50:31 <laugh>.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:50:31 Which is funny if you think about it, because it's, it was incredible. The treatment was awesome. I could touch my toes afterwards, which I couldn't even end at the waist before it was in, it was worth every penny and twice as much. But in the back of my head, I was like, oh my God, I can't afford that. And that's just, it's just an automatic response developed over 40 something years that hasn't, so that's
Jason Montoya 00:50:54 Given, that's a underlying belief that you need to reprogram then, it sounds like. Yep. Right. Yep. And and is that what you're also saying? Yeah. With, with finances is like, what you're trying to do is figure out, like, whether it's me or whoever, Hey Jason, here, here are these underlying beliefs you have. And until you rectify those, until you reorient them towards this better belief, you're, no matter what you do, you're going to keep fallen on your face. Is that what you're telling me?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:51:23 Absolutely. We, we live in this, um, we live in a, uh, market focused and performance driven culture. We're talking about investing in money markets, markets, markets. Think about media, think about, you know, the advertising, uh, uh, it's just markets performance, markets performance, which I find hilarious because those are two things we cannot predict or control. We spend all of our time and energy talking about those two things, but we can't predict or control what comes next. Whereas if you learn some basic principles, some basic lessons, you do some financial planning, understand authentically where you're trying to go and plan to get there, there are behaviors you can put in place that will get you there. Yeah. And so it's 95% of the energy and the, and the motion in the financial world, personal financial world is wasted. Yeah. And so let's focus on things that actually work. Let's, let's actually use a narrative that will function for your outcomes. And that's, yeah. That is everything that we do. I had a, yeah, I, I had a client tell me at a, at a presentation once, Jonathan, I finally get it. You don't manage money, you manage people. And I was like, yeah, that's right. <laugh>. That's exactly what we do. <laugh>. Yep.
Jason Montoya 00:52:31 Well, it's funny cuz I, I can relate to that too. Like, I'm in digital content marketing and I help companies grow their sales and influence and all that, but at the end of the day, I am there to help them become better leaders. Right? I'm he helping them, he develop their character and have betters, um, uh, better in how they run their business and who they are being the type of person that wants to run their business better and develop the type of systems and the team. So it's, I very much relate to that. Like, my, my digital marketing is a Trojan horse for my real work <laugh>. It sounds like that's with you.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:53:09 Same idea.
Jason Montoya 00:53:11 <laugh>. So I guess two things. Uh, one is you're telling me that you're being compassionate to past you who probably hasn't been as responsible as he ought to have been at different times. And you're being responsible for a future. You who may not be, may not have the capacity to do the things that you can do now. Would, would you agree with that? Does that make sense?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:53:36 Yeah, yeah. That's a good summary. Yeah.
Jason Montoya 00:53:39 So that kind of idea of like thinking about like, I, this is something over the last several years I've thought about a lot is like, you know, when I do some, like, I've written the two books and I go, thank you past me for doing that <laugh>. I'm so grateful for that. Cuz I, cuz I know how hard it was. And I'm working on my third book now and it's really hard. So, um, but it's done like past me did it <laugh>. And it's just really cool to have to kind of share in that success. Um, it just gives me joy when I think about it. So I don't know if you agree or not, but
Jonathan DeYoe 00:54:14 <laugh> Oh, I told you, I, I have a past me that wrote a book too, and I, and I have a, I have a, my second book is coming out hopefully later this year. So Yeah, I understand that challenge and, and the joy of Oh, past me is such a good guy. <laugh>
Jason Montoya 00:54:26 <laugh>. Yes, yes. Thank you. And, uh,
Jonathan DeYoe 00:54:28 But it's interesting, it create, it creates this question, will future me be as good? Like it's, do I have to maintain the, the, the, the motion and the direction?
Jason Montoya 00:54:38 Yeah.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:54:39 When can you relax,
Jason Montoya 00:54:40 Relax. Well, and that, I would, I would say that that is another layer that I think, um, why don't we have to recognize our dependence on ourselves in the sense of like what we're describing, like past me and future me. But I think we have dependence on our family, on our community, on our city, on our state, on our country and our world. Like we have dependencies on a lot. Yeah. And so that's where, um, and then ultimately for me, I would, my dependency is in God, um, God's providence. So that, that's what gives me rest. That's what I can sort of sit sort of that um, that old, I remember when growing up that old song, uh, and uh, you know, Bible school, uh, the god's got the whole world in his hands, got the whole world. So that's sort of, it's this, it, you know, singing it now is sounds silly, but it actually is. It, it provides No, I
Jonathan DeYoe 00:55:33 Get it.
Jason Montoya 00:55:34 Of that. And, and it's, you know, similar, I think what you were describing in terms of like this dynamic force that that works things out. Right? So, um, um, but I think that dependence is key. And I, I think that dependence is necessary because, um, I'll, I'll go to the thinking, the thinking thing and the solitude. Like you mentioned meditation. Um, one of the things in the origins of totalitarian, she talks about the difference between loneliness and solitude and loneliness. Um, you can be alone and the worst type of loneliness is where you're not even thinking, you're just being, you're just, you're just acting. Right? You're reacting like you're saying. And solitude is cuz it's, cuz you can leave people like we, me and you can leave this conversation and I can go into solitude and I can think about it and reflect on it, and I can grow and change and think about the next time.
Jason Montoya 00:56:24 And solitude helps me think. And so that allows me to come back and, and, uh, to this com to, you know, the next time we talk or, or talk with someone else and take what I've grown and, and apply that. So that's kind of an interesting idea. The other thing I would wanna throw at you, this is a question. So you talked about the people that helped you. Hmm. Um, your parents and the people along your journey. I'd be curious, what do you say to that person that's like, maybe they are kind of jaded, maybe their parents abandoned them, maybe, uh, one or both of 'em. Maybe, maybe they were an orphan. Um, maybe there weren't people that poured into them and they're kind of at a point where it's like bitterness and anger. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, what, what would you tell that person?
Jonathan DeYoe 00:57:12 Uh, the first thing I'd say is, you know, you're, you, it's understandable that you're bitter. Like, it, it makes perfect sense. Like you got Delta crappy hand. Uh, I mean, that's one of the, one of the groups, there's two groups that, uh, in the Bay Area that, that I've worked with in the past. And one of 'em is, um, foster youth. You know, there's this point, you're an orphan and you're supported by the system until you're 18, and then you're not supported anymore and you're just on your own. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there's this, there's this point where they're just crapped outta the system and, you know, good luck. Yeah. They're coming outta that system and getting anywhere. Uh, so it sucks. Admit, yeah, this was a horrible starting point. And that doesn't change the truth. That the only person that's going to get you beyond this horrible starting point is you, the system's not gonna do it.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:58:10 The, the proof of that is that you got crapped outta the system. You're 18, now, you're on your own. Good luck, right. Get a job, take care of yourself. Um, and you can scream all day that the system is broken, but that doesn't fix the system. Right. And the system is what the system is. And so yes, it sucks. And the only way to solve that is to is for you to solve it. And so then it's okay if, if, if they can be convinced of that, then we have steps that we can work on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, simple things, education, um, work, um, improving work, continuing education, get better at what you do, figure out what you love, do the thing that you love, realize it's gonna be hard. I mean, the reality is, I think if you ask most people, there are points in almost everyone's life where it was horrible.
Jonathan DeYoe 00:59:06 It sucked. Yeah. And there's degrees, right? If you're, if you're coming outta the foster youth system, you, you got a really bad hand. Um, yeah, I had two parents who loved me. They gave me great messages. We didn't have any money, but, but I got great, yeah, I great parents who loved me and took care of me. And I always had a roof. And it's all, that was all positive. There's other people that, you know, my friends or some of my friends in high school, you know, they took trips, they flew around the world. My, my neighbor, my neighbor had a plane, you know, a private plane. So it's, so there's the, the all kinds of levels, um, by the way, the, the neighbor with a private plane son committed suicide later in life. So it's, everyone has hands, they're dealt, everyone's gotta deal with the cards they're dealt. And, and you have to, you've, you've gotta just take ownership of those cards and do what you can with it. Start where you are. Um, and that's hopefully the only, the message is compassion. Yes. I know it's hard, but y y there isn't another option here. This is called life. Life is real. And so yeah, we have to take steps from where you are. So where are you, what steps will work? And let's figure that out.
Jason Montoya 01:00:18 Yeah. So you mentioned systems. What do you, how do you think about systems? How do you use 'em? What are some systems that you use? You mentioned, you know, in this case it's like sometimes the systems fail. Um, how do you make good systems that don't fail? <laugh>?
Jonathan DeYoe 01:00:35 Yeah. I, I that's, Hmm, that's a, that's a tough question. I, I think that all systems fail. You know, they, they're just, they fail in different ways. And so the, the idea of the system, the thing I like about what we have, even though it's contentious and it's volatile and it, you know, and we yell at each other a lot. I always like the fact that the conversation continues. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, we, we continue to ask questions, and as long as we're asking questions, the systems can be improved. We have a tendency now to point fingers rather than ask questions. And so I think that that's, I think hopefully that's a moment in time. Um, yeah. And we get back to asking some questions. Um, but who knows? Like, this could be, this could be the beginning of the end in terms of, you know, we're just now gonna fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight.
Jonathan DeYoe 01:01:28 It does, it does seem that way sometimes. But, you know, more intelligent people eventually prevail. Um, you know, more compassionate people eventually prevail. I do, I do believe that we are on an upward trend long term, and we take these dips into idiocy the short term. Like I, I do think that that's normal. Life is getting more complex. We, we, we are following a, um, sort of a social model. Our brains do work in a certain way. Um, and those are usually positive. And then we take these short-term trips down, you know, stupid things. But yeah, we have to have some kind of system we work within. I, I'm a fan of the systems that enable, that enable the person to pursue their own ends.
Jason Montoya 01:02:11 Um, entrepreneurial
Jonathan DeYoe 01:02:12 Systems, entrepreneurial stuff. Yeah. Um, self-determination I think is critical. Freedom I think is critical. Critical. And you'll get a lot of pushback on some of that. But I think most of the pushback comes from a belief that we can actually provide for everybody. Um, and maybe we can, but I don't know that, I don't know that all of our values will line up to do that. Yeah. And I do know that if we, if we make the individual both, if we enable the individual, and if we recognize that the individual's outcome comes down to the individual, which it does regardless of the system, it, it comes down to whether you're operating within a capitalist system or socialist system, you know, uh, it comes down to the groups you belong to and the efforts you put in. Um, and I'd love it if it all worked out for everybody, but it's hard. It's, it's, it's hard. Um, so we have to have a system, but it's, I think it comes back to your actions. It always will come back to your actions and what you do, what you think, what you believe, what you think, what you do. Yeah.
Jason Montoya 01:03:19 So, in your little bubble, in your world, what are some, some ways that you use systems then to, uh, to do what you're describing?
Jonathan DeYoe 01:03:28 Well, the, the whole system of, I have a, I have a service and people use my service. Yeah. That's a, that is a, that is set up by the system, right. People can hire me to do a thing. Um, and I, I do that. I do that thing. I love the thing that I do. Um, yeah. So the idea of pursuing education and, and yeah. And getting smarter about the thing that I do and getting better at the thing that I do. Um, our system enables that. And I think that's a great thing.
Jason Montoya 01:03:53 Yeah. What else do you wanna share with us that you haven't already? What are your parting words of wisdom?
Jonathan DeYoe 01:04:00 You know what, I, I think that the thing that we should do more of is, or less of is taking ourselves so seriously. I mean, I think, I think we should probably just relax a bit and I'm, I'm giving myself advice now. Yeah. And I'm assuming that's,
Jason Montoya 01:04:11 Does that mean having fun or is that separate than having fun?
Jonathan DeYoe 01:04:14 No, I think, I think it's great to have fun. I mean, we always, we're seeking, I, I read something this morning actually about this, you know, we, we always said, well, let's be happy. I wanna be happy. I wanna be happy. Well, you may not be happy, but you can have fun. Ha. You know, having fun is a thing that you can engage in and do. Like I what I found for 20 something years at work, work, work, work, work, work, work. And then my brother died and I wasn't happy, but I could watch comedy. And when I watched comedy, I could laugh and I could have fun. And that has been kind of a, like a finding that thing that worked for me, that gave me these moments of joy, this moment, moments of laughter, um, huge, huge. When everything was dark, there were moments of laughter.
Jonathan DeYoe 01:04:58 And, and that's, that's having fun, I think. And I, and I think that that's probably a great way to go. Yeah. Um, that, that, the second thing I would say, you know, we kind of touched this, touched on this a little bit, is if you're not, if you're, if if you aren't thoughtful at the beginning, then you're not gonna pursue the thing you love. And if you don't pursue the thing you love, whether you pursue the thing you love or not, you're gonna get smacked in the face over and over and over and over again. And if you pursue the thing that you love, you might pull through all those smacks in the face. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if you're doing something that's just drudgery and you hate it, and you're just showing up and it sucks and you don't like it and it's not fun, and it's not something you're passionate about, and life slaps you in the face over and over, you're gonna stop and you're gonna have to start over. So this is why you sort of put, they, they say put your, put your ladder on the right wall. Right. I, and that's what I would say is, is do something that you love, do something that you're good at originally, and then pursue that and just do that with all your heart. Um, that'll help you. That's nine tenths of the way there. If you can do, if you can find the thing that you love that people will value. That's, that's everything. That's huge.
Jason Montoya 01:06:09 Yeah. What, um, what are you up to where you mentioned your services, you mentioned your podcast. Tell us, uh, what you're up to, what you're doing, how people can work with you, where they find you, how can they connect with you?
Jonathan DeYoe 01:06:23 Yeah. You know, half my time is working in the wealth management world, and I'm still building, you know, clients for EP Wealth and, and inviting people to join, you know, one of our teams and work with one of our teams on one-to-one Wealth management, which, you know, it's huge. I spend most of my time, you know, doing the podcast and writing and trying to, you know, build things that'll help other people. Um, and there won't be clients, you know, there might be, might need some coaching, might need some education. We've got courses up there, but it's all at mindful not money. Everything we do is at Mindful Not Money. We have this, um, we have a coaching program, we have this, it's a, it's a group coaching program. It's really, really inexpensive. We have, um, uh, a financial independence workshop. You know, this is the path of financial independence that we do once a quarter. You know, come check us out. Mindful Money.
Jason Montoya 01:07:10 Okay. And let's say someone is interested in working with you. What's their next step? What's the first step?
Jonathan DeYoe 01:07:15 Yeah. Mind, go to Mindful Money and fill out the, you know, work with us. Uh, sheet form.
Jason Montoya 01:07:21 Okay. Uh, social media. Are you active on there or?
Jonathan DeYoe 01:07:25 Yeah, I'm, I'm active everywhere. Uh, the best place to see the place I'm active, it's Twitter, LinkedIn, LinkedIn's the place that I'm probably most engaged. Um, yeah. But we're on Facebook, we're LinkedIn, we're on, we're on Insta. Uh, but the best place to find all those things is the links on the top of the website at Michael Do Money.
Jason Montoya 01:07:41 Cool. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for sharing your life with us today.
Jonathan DeYoe 01:07:45 Uh, Jason, it's been great. You are the most philosophical guest host I've, I've ever, I've been, you know, been interviewed by, so I appreciate it very much.
Jason Montoya 01:07:52 Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

Podcast - Inspirational People, Jonathan DeYoe

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