Visiting Israel After the October 7th Massacre — Discussing David Wittenberg Perspective On The Conflict

Connect With David Wittenberg

• Connect with David >>> Company Website - Facebook

Additional Takeaways

• David has a deep connection to Israel through family history and personal experiences.
• Zionism emerged as a response to anti-Semitism and the need for a Jewish homeland.
• The historical context of Israel's statehood is complex and rooted in thousands of years of history.
• The October 2023 attack was a significant and shocking event for Israel, akin to 9/11 for the United States.
• David emphasizes the importance of understanding the nuances of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
• He highlights the contributions of Jewish people to the world despite their small population.
• The conversation touches on the challenges of living in a region with ongoing conflict and violence.
• David discusses the role of the UN and international perceptions of Israel.
• The podcast aims to provide a balanced view of a controversial topic.
• The generational trauma in the Jewish community is profound.
• Humanitarian efforts are crucial during wartime, but often overlooked.
• The events of October 7th changed perceptions and responses significantly.
• Israel serves as a critical safe haven for Jews globally.
• Concerns about anti-Semitism are rising in various communities.
• The global reaction to Israel's actions has been overwhelmingly negative.
• Volunteering in Israel can provide a sense of purpose and connection.
• Community support plays a vital role in uplifting those affected by conflict.
• Leadership accountability is essential for addressing the ongoing issues. 

Podcast Episode Transcript

David Wittenberg (00:00)
it's now very personal. It's always been personal but it's even more personal now. Now I know people. So yeah, there's this feeling of

What am I doing? How dare I continue with my my everyday life? You know, I go to work I come home. I've got a good life here But you know, how can I do

Jason Scott Montoya (01:46)
Welcome to a Listen to Learn episode of the Share Life podcast. I'm Jason Scott-Mittoya and today I'm here with David Wittenberg. David, say hello.

David Wittenberg (01:53)
Hello Jason, thank you for having me.

Jason Scott Montoya (01:55)
Yeah, yeah, glad to have you here as well. Today we're gonna be talking to David about his trip to Israel, as well as the history that brought him to that point. He went to Israel this past December, so it's January 2025 right now. He went from December, from December 28th to January 12th. Went to visit, he went to help, he went to understand what was going on on the ground, and so we get to chat with David today to learn.

what he learned in that experience, what he learned from the people on the ground, and as well as his perspective. So David, thank you so much for sharing this with us and being bold and willing to step out in a controversial topic to share with us your story. You and I have been longtime friends. When I had my marketing agency, Noodlehead Marketing, you were a client. And after I shut it down, you continued to work with me for a while. You're a bankruptcy attorney.

and in the Norcross, Atlanta, Metro Atlanta area. Anything else you would add about yourself before we dive into a little bit of your back story?

David Wittenberg (02:53)
father of two, a grandchild. Yeah, Yeah, she's almost, almost four now. So yeah, growing, growing fast. you know, lived in, the Atlanta area for 30 plus years doing bankruptcy work for 31 plus years now. sole practitioner, just had my own practice. And, yeah, so if I'm not working, I

Jason Scott Montoya (02:57)
Yeah, well congratulations. That was a new development, right? In the last year? Yeah, okay, yeah.

David Wittenberg (03:17)
I do love traveling, but this trip was a little different. This was, I would call it a mission for lack of a better word. was strictly to help the economy. As I said, one by buying one falafel at a time or one shawarma at a time and also to offer some support with an organized program for one week.

and an unorganized program for another week just have found a group, a Facebook group that shares volunteer opportunities. And I just went there, got a hotel room at a place where a lot of volunteers seem to gather and just as opportunities came up, jumped on them.

Jason Scott Montoya (03:55)
Yeah, so we'll dive into that in more detail, but let's rewind a bit. So you've been in Atlanta for 30 years. Where did you start out?

David Wittenberg (04:03)
I mean, go all the way back, born and raised in Maryland, just outside of DC. Undergrad, Connecticut college, then law school. Went back to DC for three years, worked as a paralegal, and then went to law school in Akron, Ohio, and was graduating law school, expecting a child. And my parents had found their way here to Atlanta. So my...

then wife and I decided it'd nice to have family nearby and that's what brought us to Atlanta.

Jason Scott Montoya (04:36)
tell us about your religious upbringing, what about your parents and how that unfolded.

David Wittenberg (04:40)
Yeah, so it was not a real strict observance upbringing. We did not keep kosher. You know, I did go to Hebrew school and my father had no religious upbringing. My mother definitely had more of a religious upbringing. So we did go to Hebrew school a couple of days after. Yes, yes, both Jewish, yes, both Jewish from Jewish neighborhoods in Philadelphia.

Jason Scott Montoya (04:58)
Were they both Jewish though, despite your dad's lack of ignorance? Yeah.

David Wittenberg (05:06)
But I did go to Hebrew school a couple of days a week, during the week. And then Saturday I had Hebrew school as well. I was not a good student. I didn't want to be there. So, you you get home from school, you want to go out and play. And I was being taken to Hebrew school. was not, it was not where I wanted to be. And then my parents would send me to a Jewish camp through the synagogue.

Jason Scott Montoya (05:18)
Haha.

Okay.

Every year or every couple times a year?

David Wittenberg (05:32)
so

it was, it was like a month program. I don't, I started really young. We would go away for a month in the campus in West Virginia. That I loved. There was very little, you know, we were just, it was a camp. We had games and fun and there was some religious instruction, but it was nominal. so that I enjoyed.

Jason Scott Montoya (05:44)
Okay, yeah.

David Wittenberg (05:56)
But they did make a commitment despite not being super orthodox. I mean, we just didn't do a whole lot with religion. But despite that, my parents made a trip to Israel, I want to say 1976, and they came back and made a

Jason Scott Montoya (06:13)
Okay.

David Wittenberg (06:15)
expose us to the country.

I would say between 1977, 1988, I was in Israel five summers. So one year we'd go to camp, the next year it seemed like we would go to Israel. And really we were immersed in Israel because they would rent an apartment. This was long before Airbnb. One year we rented an apartment and we were the only Anglos in that building.

And I brought a Nerf football with me and I was about 12, 13 years old. And that Nerf football was like, it was like I brought a UFO, know, nobody had seen anything like that. I was a big hit on the playground with my Nerf football. Cause I didn't, I mean, I could kick a soccer ball around, but I just kicked it out of my league. But the Nerf football was a big hit. So yeah, we had, yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (07:04)
Yeah.

Yeah, now for, well, I'll

me interrupt you for a moment. For people that aren't familiar with like how Judaism is, there's the Reform side and the Orthodox. Could you just give a little explanation of what that is?

David Wittenberg (07:20)
Yeah,

yeah, like any, like any religion, you know, there are folks that are going every other day. Some people just go for the big holidays. You know, we were the big holiday type, know, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur. It's like folks that show up, you know, for Christmas and an Easter mass. It's, you know, and then there are those are there every week. So like reform Jews are not as,

Jason Scott Montoya (07:31)
Mm-hmm.

David Wittenberg (07:49)
devout as an Orthodox Jew. The Hebrew prayers are an everyday part of their life, living the commandments is an everyday part of their life. In the middle is a conservative. It's kind of like you had Orthodox and then when Reform Judaism came around, some people said, hey, you've gone too far. We don't even recognize this as a synagogue. You're not wearing a kippah. You're not doing anything in Hebrew. So conservative kind of filled that gap.

Jason Scott Montoya (08:10)
Hmm.

OK.

David Wittenberg (08:17)
the synagogue we belong to actually was conservative. So, yeah. In the middle ground.

Jason Scott Montoya (08:20)
Okay, so you were in that middle ground area then growing up,

but more casual in your practice of it.

David Wittenberg (08:27)
I was very casual and to this day, know, I am a high holiday few shows up for the big holidays. My parents have become more observant. They keep kosher now. They would keep the Sabbath so they're not traveling. They're not driving on Saturday. It's become a bigger part of their lives. But there was always the connection. There was always an

Judaism is, there's a debate about whether it's its own race. We always had that connection to the history, the contributions that we've made to the world. I always took great pride in that. There's literally 17, 18 million Jews in the world. There's really no reason why they're even in any conversation.

Jason Scott Montoya (09:06)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (09:13)
It's a tiny, tiny, tiny group of people, maybe less than 1 % of the world's population. But I think our contributions just far exceed our numbers. Whether you're at Nobel Prize winners or any science and innovations, it's really remarkable. So I've always taken pride in that.

Jason Scott Montoya (09:16)
Yeah.

innovations, technology, yeah.

Yeah, and so how did you contextualize these things when you were younger, when you were that kid at camp? Like, did it mean anything or was it just, hey, I'm going to the mountains?

David Wittenberg (09:51)
No, it always meant something. I would never say I wasn't Jewish. And I can recall a couple of incidences, it would be junior high school, elementary school, where someone made a remark about Jews and I would physically respond.

Jason Scott Montoya (10:15)
Yeah, yeah, which was unusual for your type of response, or is that normal? You a tether, that was normal? You velled out. Yeah, so how many teeth did you knock out? Is that what you're saying? Yeah.

David Wittenberg (10:20)
No, I had a temper. I've mellowed out, but I could be provoked.

But I did I I Certainly I know that size was not a deterrence so It didn't matter to me what you how big the person was if you made a comment that I think was Antisemitic I I would respond I certainly would not

Jason Scott Montoya (10:41)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (10:54)
I would not put my head down and pretend it wasn't happening.

Jason Scott Montoya (10:57)
Yeah. So how does

that evolve as you go through high school and become a young adult and get into your career?

David Wittenberg (11:05)
Yeah, well, you know, 99 % of the time it's a non-issue. My religious beliefs, if someone wants to have a conversation about them, I'm happy to have that conversation. It's funny, as an attorney, I have had more than one client say, you're Jewish, right? I say, yeah. And they say, good, I want a Jewish lawyer. I'm like, okay. Yeah, I've never had, you know,

Jason Scott Montoya (11:09)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

David Wittenberg (11:33)
As a professional, I've never had a negative experience with being Jewish.

Jason Scott Montoya (11:36)
Yeah,

Was there any connection to that in becoming a lawyer or becoming a bankruptcy lawyer?

David Wittenberg (11:42)
We tend, you know, there's certain professions people tend to go to. And you will find a lot of Jews in the legal profession. And I believe in large part it's because we have been reading a document for thousands of years and having arguments over that document and that being the Torah, the five books.

And there's the Talmud goes beyond the Torah. There are interpretations of the Torah. We've been doing that for 3000 plus years and having conversations about it. So I do think there's something in our DNA that makes us very, the legal field to be very attractive. Where you have this book, you have this bankruptcy code and it's a thousand pages and you

you've got to dissect it and interpret it. It's not clear and there's ways of going through it. So I do think the profession is geared towards Jews. I think we've been doing the thing for 3,000 plus years, interpreting a book.

Jason Scott Montoya (12:38)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah. Now let's shift into the state of Israel. What was your connect, I mean you obviously grew up in the US, but you have a connection to the state. Tell me more about that, how that evolved.

David Wittenberg (13:07)
Yeah, so again, our first visit was 1977. I was introduced to cousins who my grandparents made the first trip. My family, the first people, before I was born, my grandparents took a boat to Israel and they discovered some cousins that had survived the Holocaust. On the boat, they actually have a group that would get names and

where you lived and because my grandparents came from the Ukraine, Russia region. They came before the Germans in the 30s and 40s. I always tell people if you've seen Fiddler on the roof, that's the story. life was not easy. And thankfully, because the Russians were so bad, my grandparents left before the Germans got there because when Germans arrived.

Jason Scott Montoya (13:41)
Yeah

wow.

David Wittenberg (14:02)
people weren't getting out. But they found cousins. So I know on our first trip, we were able to meet cousins who had been in Israel, who had fought for Israel and its independence. One cousin has a fascinating story that he had fought against British rule and had been incarcerated in Cyprus, the estate.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:04)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (14:27)
They arrested him again, they put him in prison in Kenya. So there was that first connection that, now I've met someone who physically was here when the country was founded and fought for its independence. It's like meeting someone that was in the colonial militia under Washington, know, George Washington. It's birth of the country. 1948 was when Israel accepted statehood. The UN partitioned the region.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:34)
Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah, what year was that?

Okay.

David Wittenberg (14:54)
Israel accepted in 1948, I think it's Independence Day, mid May of 48, and Palestine was given its own territory and they rejected it. They rejected independence.

Jason Scott Montoya (15:09)
Yeah. So, so, and they say that again.

David Wittenberg (15:10)
They won't be shared a lot.

They weren't going to share the land. They rejected the partition. They rejected any sort of Jewish presence in that region. And that continues to today.

Jason Scott Montoya (15:22)
Okay.

Yeah. So help us, I guess, tell us a little bit of that history then, you know, from that point to now in terms of the state's history as you see it. Yeah.

David Wittenberg (15:33)
Well, mean, if you go

back, we have a book over 3000 years old, what you would call the Old Testament, we refer to it as the five books or the Torah, but it physically describes the region and describes our exodus from Egypt and our arrival in that region. literally 3000 plus years ago, but we're there.

Jason Scott Montoya (15:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

David Wittenberg (15:58)
And we built Jerusalem and you know, there are coins and there are Israeli Jewish Kings and Stalman and David and Stalin. It went on for hundreds of years that we had this presence. So, I mean, you can go way back and we have a connection to that piece of land. an Orthodox person would say, this is where God put us. Abraham was told to come here.

I don't necessarily want to make the argument on the religious grounds. Mine's more historical that there has been a Jewish presence there for over 2,000 years. fast forward, you've got, real quickly, Babylonians, we build a temple, a big temple, right? It's the only temple when you want to go.

pray you go the temple. And it's sacked, destroyed by the Babylonians, we're dispersed, we're sent to Babylon. There's a short period where we're out of the, we've been kicked out of the land of Israel. We return and then the Romans come and around the time of Jesus, there's Roman occupation and there's an uprising and the Romans destroy the temple, the second destruction of the temple.

And this time we are again dispersed and the Romans actually create the name Palestine. They want to divorce the Jews from the land, so they rename the land and the land becomes Palestine. And then for the next 2000 years, we are sometimes invited to a place and then ultimately kicked out.

So, you and you can see the population, goes, there's a golden age, they call it under Spain and Portugal, actually under Muslim rule. Things are much better for us than under the, Europe, Western Europe is in the throes of the dark ages. It's a time of great scientific discovery, enlightenment for the Muslim world. And the Jews are thriving in Egypt and Morocco and Spain.

And then, you know, I love history. was a history major. I'm going do this all day. But the Inquisition occurs in the 1490s in Spain and Portugal. And now we're actually invited to Eastern Europe. The Polish kings say, come, we'll take you. So, you know, there's a dispersal and we're predominantly in that Poland-Russia region.

Jason Scott Montoya (18:02)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, go ahead.

David Wittenberg (18:27)
from the 1490s until really the Holocaust until the 1940s. That's where most Jews are living. So, you know, as things get bad in Europe, there is a movement, there is a...

Zionist movement is reborn and it's a desire out of, really out of necessity that we need to have a Jews, we need to have a country, a place where we are safe. We can't keep moving around. And what's really remarkable is that the religion and the people have survived 2000 years of exile, 2000 years of not having a piece of land. It's really uncurred of.

If you took the Irish out of Ireland, they wandered around for 2000 years, but they still exist. The Irish were horribly oppressed, but they always had that piece of land. And we didn't have that. It's really, really unusual that someone would survive 2000 years of dispersion. Yeah, it's remarkable. So there's this Zionist movement and a lot of the land...

Jason Scott Montoya (19:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, without that sovereignty, yeah.

David Wittenberg (19:30)
in Israel was actually purchased in the late 1800s, early 1900s. There's any land that was for sale, there were groups, Jewish National Fund, the lost childs. There were people purchasing it and it was swamp, it was desert, and their Arab owners were more than happy to sell it at an inflated rate because they thought these Jews were crazy. So a lot, I don't know the percentage, but a lot of the property was actually purchased.

Jason Scott Montoya (19:33)
Mm-hmm.

David Wittenberg (19:58)
People don't realize that. So there's this movement to return. Things aren't good in Europe. And then, of course, the holocaust. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (20:04)
Yeah, well let's pause there. So

there's a lot in the news and it seems to be a lot of controversy around just this Zionist idea. Can you help us make sense of why that is and what the different points of view are?

David Wittenberg (20:17)
Yeah.

Right. So the modern founder of the Zionist movement is a man named Theodor Herzl who was in Basel, Switzerland. Not particularly religious, but he was observing what was going on. And there was a famous trial in France called the Dreyfus Affair in which a Jewish member of the French military was accused of spying.

Just a, was a circus of a trial. He was convicted. sent to what is it? Devil's Island, I think, or if you're familiar with the movie, Tapiran. And it's just, it's a watershed moment where he realizes, you know, we don't have a history here. We're in trouble here in Europe. Things are not good. In addition to that, the Russians had a new czar.

And he was very anti-Semitic and there was a lot of pogroms as they're Massacres were occurring throughout Eastern Europe. So there was this modern movement that we need a safe place in. Israel made sense. Israel made sense. It was not heavily populated. It was under Ottoman control. are the modern day Turks. So it was a Muslim country. And I think initially there was...

everybody was okay with it. As the numbers grew, I think there was a backlash from the local population and there were incidences and attacks and kind of that modern day battle started between their population and the Jewish population. And then fast forward to the...

Holocaust, literally eliminated a third of the world's population. I think emerging from that, European countries still didn't want the survivors. There weren't many survivors, but they still weren't opening their arms. And the British had assumed control of the region after the Ottoman Empire fell in the First World War, 1917,

And now it's under British rule and the British devise a plan that we're going to partition the country. We're going to the Jewish cities. We're going to give to the land of Israel and the other cities will give to Palestine. And they also, I mean, they literally carved up the world after World War I. The French took Syria and Lebanon. The British got Egypt and Israel and Iraq and they carved up, they were the victors and they carved up the world.

So the British are occupying, the British are in bad shape after, especially after World War II. They're not able to hang on to all these colonies around the world, more of the French. And they decide at some point, we're going to leave. We're leaving on May 14th, 1948. It's the UN's problem now. The United Nations has been created and they can deal with it.

Jason Scott Montoya (22:54)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (23:02)
But there was always a, under the British rule, had been promises made to both sides that this is your land. Eventually we will. And especially there was no oil there, but they really had no interest. There was oil and I ran and I went out. So they had more of an interest. This is a hostile geography. It's desert in the South. There are mountains in the North. There's swamps. mean, it's just not Eden.

Jason Scott Montoya (23:15)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (23:29)
by any stretch and imagine. But yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (23:33)
And so to pull back,

those that are critical of, I guess, the Zionist movement, what is it that they're saying and how are they framing it?

David Wittenberg (23:40)
Yeah, you know, I've watched some of the, you know, everything's on YouTube. So I've watched students, because the student movement in this country on the universities has been shocking to me and to Jews, you how anti-Zionistic it is in this.

What I'm hearing is that Israel, that they're colonizers and they're in an apartheid state. it's, it's, I almost don't want to take on those, those, it's just slander. It's, it's, it's not based in any, no one who's been there can, can, would say that this is an apartheid state or that Israel was a colonizer. It's just, it's almost like having discussion to the Holocaust.

I'm not having that conversation. We know it occurred. Because the Germans kept great records. That's all we know. We have survivors and have footage. And if you go to Israel, every road sign is in Hebrew, English, and Arabic. They're Arab members of the parliament, parliament, the equivalent of Congress. 20 % of the population is Israeli Arab. They're Arabs.

They in Israel. They for the most part are Muslim and their mosques, their towns are predominantly Arab and they're free to practice. They're free to become doctors, lawyers, whatever they want, accountants. They have full rights as Israelis. So, you know, the apartheid argument, I guess what would they say? They would say this was our land. We were here.

And these folks came from Europe. We've been here for the last 500, 600 years and it's our land. there, again, as I had said, much of the land had been purchased. Tel Aviv is a strictly Jewish city. It was designed, built and created by Jews. Nearby there was Jaffa, which was...

the predominantly Arab city and still is today. There were events in 1948 when there was a war. Israel's independence was declared. again, the Jews accepted. The UN said, these are the lines and the lines are horrible. They're horribly drawn. It was inevitable that there was going to be, and they knew that there was going be a war. So they drew the lines.

In my personal opinion is they didn't expect Israel to survive. The British were not pro-Israel. were very much pro-Arab. The Arabs had the oil.

Jason Scott Montoya (26:08)
Mm.

Yeah. I mean, it sounds

like a lot of these problems go back to the British era. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

David Wittenberg (26:16)
Absolutely, all over the world. All over the world. The lines drawn.

India and Pakistan, millions were killed and then departed. Countries all over the world. Yeah, not just the British, but any truly, those were colonizers. We had no power coming out of the Holocaust. We had no, there was no power. We weren't in power. We were absolutely, we were.

Jason Scott Montoya (26:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

David Wittenberg (26:44)
displaced, we were devastated and the dream of a homeland, someplace where Jews could be safe and Israel made sense. But in 1948, when they drew those lines, the Arabs attacked immediately. The armies of Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, probably leaving one out, Syria, immediately attacked and remarkably, the Jews who did not have an established army,

or Air Force were able to survive that. So in that moment, were there Palestinians that were displaced? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. They lost. They lost a war. And there were areas that Palestinians had been living and they were pushed out. Yeah, no doubt. So, you the argument, hey, this was our country. We were here. They were there in the immediate...

they were present, if they had accepted the boundaries, I think they'd still be there, the ones that were displaced. And at the same time, the Jews of Morocco, Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Iran were expelled. So you now have not only the European Jews that had survived the Holocaust that were trying to come in, now you have almost a million

Jason Scott Montoya (27:52)
Hmm.

David Wittenberg (27:59)
Jews from Arab countries that have been expelled from their country. They've been there for hundreds of years and were very successful and now they're coming in. So you have this population, you have a need for land. So yeah, that's a big moment, 1948. The Palestinians should be celebrating 76 years of independence as Israel does.

Jason Scott Montoya (28:16)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (28:21)
That was a moment, a moment where they could have accepted it. But they rejected it. They didn't want to share the land. And that rejection continues.

Jason Scott Montoya (28:29)
So how does that play out from then to today, like bring us up to the present?

David Wittenberg (28:34)
Well, alright, so...

The West Bank is occupied by Jordan after the War of Independence, as Israel calls it, in 1948. The West Bank is occupied by Jordan. Gaza is occupied by Egypt. Syria is in the Golan Heights. And there's a lot of saber rattling where the Arabs are threatening to light the Jews out, push them into the sea, and relatively

quiet until 1967 when all sides are poised to attack and Israel launches a preemptive strike, eliminates the Egyptian air force and then they still get attacked from all sides and in six days in 1967 Israel pushes the Egyptians back, takes the Sinai Peninsula which is a massive piece of land, it's bigger than the state of Israel itself.

and they successfully entered Jerusalem, which we were not allowed in the old city. The Jewish sites in Jerusalem, we had no access to from 48 to 67. In 48, they were not able to successfully liberate Jerusalem. So it was in Jordanian hands. And in 67,

Israel takes the Golan Heights, takes Jordan, takes the Gaza Strip, takes the Sinai Peninsula, takes the West Bank, and Jerusalem's liberated. We're able to go to the Western Wall, which is the most holy site. It's an outer wall of the old temple in Jerusalem. had been used just to file by, they used to pile their garbage there, the Jordanians. So now we have these, we have these

We have this land, and that's in 67. In Arabs attack again and almost win. They come really close to winning. The U.S. does really come to Israel's rescue. without waiting for Congress, gets the supplies to Israel that Israel needs to fight off that attack.

Four years later, Israel's giving, sitting down with Amar Sadat and making peace under Carter, I think 79, they signed a peace accord. So the idea was always, all right, we have this land. In exchange for peace, you can have the land back. And they did it with Egypt. Is it a close relationship? No, but there is no threat from Egypt.

Jason Scott Montoya (30:58)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (31:08)
Israel gave back the Sinai Peninsula. So we know Israel will give back land in exchange for peace. They've done it. We've seen it. They gave back the Sinai Peninsula, which is huge. Israel's smaller than New Jersey. Israel's tiny, tiny. if you look at the West Bank, from the West Bank to the Mediterranean Sea, where the West Bank sticks out the most, it goes the furthest west. It's about 10 miles.

So you have 10 miles of Israel and then they could cut it off in a moment if they had the ability to. They could cut that country as well. So Israel gets back the land. They have a harder time with the Palestinians in the West Bank. You see the rise of the PLO, which is under Yasser Arafat.

Jason Scott Montoya (31:32)
Okay.

David Wittenberg (31:52)
Yasser Arafat really makes a name for himself when he murders 11 Israeli athletes in 1972 at the Munich Olympics. That puts him on the map. Two years later, he's standing in front of the UN with a pistol on his side, getting a standing ovation. So I think there has been a history of the kind of rewarded for bad behavior.

I don't know how else to say it.

Jason Scott Montoya (32:16)
Yeah, yeah,

they're valorizing those bad behaviors, yeah.

David Wittenberg (32:21)
It's, I think it's a unique.

I can't understand it, but there's something about a strong Jewish state that really bothers a lot of people. so part of the reaction is, we see Israel looking like the dominant, the stronger player here, and they have to be the stronger player to remain alive. So, know, militarily they are, but there's really a backlash and it's really, really, I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't know why.

is really treated differently than other clenchers. But it feels that way to me.

Jason Scott Montoya (32:56)
Is there any other history worth

pointing out before we jump to the present or to the October 2023?

David Wittenberg (33:00)
I would point out that

under Clinton, you had the so-called Oslo Accords. And this was an agreement by Israel to withdraw from Gaza and to withdraw from a lot of the Palestinian territory. Jerusalem is kind of a non-starter for Israel. When it was in the hands of the Arabs, we didn't have any access to our holy sites.

the old city of Jerusalem, which is a very small place. It's really kind of non-negotiable and everything, think about 98 % of the West Bank was given back under the Oslo Accords. And the deal was, you get to self rule in the West Bank and in Gaza, the Palestinians can self rule, Israel will pull out.

But in exchange there has to be security, has to be peace. And the response was an intifada. Yasser Arafat went back and within weeks people are walking into cafes and blowing themselves up and walking onto buses, blowing themselves up. So Israel literally built a wall to keep the more dangerous places cut off and really stepped up.

security. But the Palestinians were given control of the West Bank and they had an election and they elected Abbas and they've never had another election. And in Gaza they have an election and they elect Hamas. So you have two different governing groups in the West Bank versus Gaza. And Israel pulls out of Gaza. Israel

dismantled Jewish settlements in Gaza. About 10,000 Jews were forcibly removed by the Israeli army from Gaza and brought back into the modern boundaries of Israel. And the result in 2005 was there's not a single Jew in Gaza. And almost immediately Hamas starts firing rockets.

And they're funded. They're funded by European countries. They're funded by Qatar. They're funded by the UN and money that is given to them to build whatever they're supposed to build, schools, hospitals. They may build these things, but they're also building tunnels. And they have a tunnel system under the city in Gaza, under the country that is more extensive than the New York subway system. It's remarkable what they're finding.

Jason Scott Montoya (35:18)
Mm-hmm.

David Wittenberg (35:28)
the scope of these tunnels. And they also built missiles and they've been firing missiles at Israel on a fairly consistent basis. They are not well aimed, they're crude. Once in a while someone might be injured or killed, it's not Israel has a defense system that they built.

Jason Scott Montoya (35:31)
Yeah.

Yeah,

can you give us the scope of that? Because I think it's hard to appreciate just how many missiles are sent at them. Like when you think about the last decade, like on a regular basis, right?

David Wittenberg (35:57)
Yeah, it's on

a regular basis. Either missiles, they also do these incendiary balloons that when they land they set the crops on fire. Israel is very agricultural in the south. That's where most of their food is grown. Yeah, it's, you know, if you have grown up in southern Israel, have

If you're a child, look at every playground has a bomb shelter. It's become a way of life. You just understand that if the sirens go off, you have to get to this shelter. But people have lived there.

Jason Scott Montoya (36:32)
Yeah, I mean, just like take it to like, like imagine if I'm in my neighborhood and I was just shooting my gun at the houses nearby. Like every, every day.

David Wittenberg (36:40)
Right, right. But meanwhile,

you still take your children to school, you take them to the playground and this happened to be vigilant. Yeah, it's amazing what people can get used to. you know, this recent trip, what struck me was how normal everything felt. And it really felt normal. And I know we'll get there. But

Jason Scott Montoya (36:46)
And they, yeah.

It's a pretty wild dynamic, yeah.

David Wittenberg (37:05)
Yeah. So, so since Hamas has been in power, their goal, their stated goal, their mission is the destruction of Israel. And it's the same with Hezbollah. And this is the governing group. So, you know, are all Palestinians interested in destroying Israel? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. But it's as if.

You have this ruling party. They're in power. Now there's never going to be another election. This is not a democracy. And do they rule through force? they rule through fear? Will they kill their own people? Absolutely. If you stand up and say, well, maybe we should talk to the Israelis. You're dead. That doesn't happen.

It's hard to understand that someone's existence is solely to destroy someone else. That's bizarre concept. They're jihadists. They're on a mission from their god. It's a bastardization of their religion. And at the risk of offending people, was a time when Christianity

Jason Scott Montoya (37:57)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (38:18)
had its own. These kings in Spain and Portugal, they were sending people out to either convert or kill. And there was a time in Christianity where the world experienced something very similar. Conquistadors were going all over the world and killing in the name of their god.

Jason Scott Montoya (38:27)
Or die, yeah.

Yeah.

David Wittenberg (38:41)
So that's what we're

Jason Scott Montoya (38:41)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (38:41)
of experiencing now with Islam is a perversion of their religion.

And it's led by Iran. That's a theocracy, Iran. But there's not a single democracy in that whole region. So you can't vote these people out. They do not lead.

Jason Scott Montoya (38:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, we underestimate

just the power and the value of a democracy that if you have bad leaders, you can get rid of them. But if you have a regime that is dictatorial or totalitarian, you are stuck with them unless you overthrow them. Yeah.

David Wittenberg (39:12)
Right, right. And

that takes arms. these governing bodies in Hamas, in Gaza, and Hezbollah, Lebanon is not a functioning country. It is ruled by a militia. And their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. That's their reason for...

Jason Scott Montoya (39:33)
Yeah. Now,

yeah. Now, how have the attitudes of Israelis, just like thinking about before October, so 2023, before the massacre, the decade before that, how had sort of the attitudes and perspective evolved of people in Israel?

David Wittenberg (39:44)
Bye.

Yes, so

like this country, have liberals, we have conservatives, we have people in the middle, we have extremists. It's the same in any country. So there are people on the far right, are Israelis. I would make the argument that the West Bank is traditionally called Judea Sumeria, but this was given to us by God. God ordained that this should be our land.

It's not to be shared. Someone on the far right would make that argument. We shouldn't have any Arabs in our midst. And that's an extreme view. And then on the far left, you had these communities that were near Gaza that had Gazan employees. People came every day on a daily basis. They worked in the fields. It tended to be more menial jobs. But there were Gazans who were coming

on a daily basis to work in Israel. And what has come, what has been learned is that this operation on October 7th, 2023 was really well planned and planned for a long time. And the people that were coming to work and had relationships with Israelis and some Israelis would say, know, consider them friends. They were really doing surveillance. They would come back and they would say, well,

There's a house here, it's got four people living in it. There's another house here. They diagrammed all the surrounding communities that are near the Gaza Strip. And not only that,

Jason Scott Montoya (41:24)
So they befriend

in order to do the surveillance so that when they did the attack it would be more effective.

David Wittenberg (41:29)
And were they under

threat when they got home? someone put a gun to their head and say, hey, know, diagram this city or kill a family member? Yeah, it's very possible. But yeah, they know that they have found maps where every family name was listed. They knew every household. They knew the makeup of the towns. They knew who had the key to the armaments because it's hard to understand, but

in these Israeli villages or cities, not everybody's walking around with rifles, but there is an armament. There is a place where in case of an emergency, there was someone who had access that could kind of arm the Israeli population. So when this invasion occurred, they knew where to go. They knew who to get. They knew what they were doing. It was very well planned. And it's really viewed as a game changer in Israel.

And I did take a tour of these sites close to Gaza that were badly impacted. The biggest massacre occurred at a music festival. think over 300 people, young people were killed at a music festival. This was, this...

Jason Scott Montoya (42:36)
And

they weren't just killed.

David Wittenberg (42:39)
their master

their right there torture they were packed up it was brutal they believe that a lot of these a lot of the gossips that were invading were dumped up on speed they're on amphetamines they were were drunk the brutality is unbelievable and i mean old people women children

It wasn't just Jews either. They're killing everybody. There are 39 or 40 Thai migrant workers who were massacred. What the Thai have done. Americans, Brits, everybody, everybody from all over the world. Israel has a migrant population that's there. Thai for some reason, Thailand's a big...

Jason Scott Montoya (43:12)
and Americans as well.

David Wittenberg (43:26)
a big place where a lot of Thai workers, migrant workers, were working in the fields and they slaughtered them. Yeah, it's not, you're Israeli, we're going to kill you. Oh, you're Thai. know, we don't have a problem with the Thai. They came to kill and they killed about 1200 people, took another 300 back to Gaza as a... I've stories some have actually been enslaved.

But mostly they're being held as bargaining chips.

Jason Scott Montoya (43:58)
and how

many of the hostages have been released and how many are still captured as of.

David Wittenberg (44:01)
Yeah, so there was

an initial, I think they say there's about 94, 95 that are believed still being held. How many of those they know are living, we're not sure. To me, it's been disappointing how few were actually rescued. So there was an initial 33 or so that were returned.

in 2023 and then a year went by and nobody was released. Israel's recovered some bodies. They did free six or seven in one operation. But I think the number I hear is about 94 remain. They don't know if they're alive or dead. And to Israel, it doesn't matter. The idea is to bring them home, whether they're living or not. It's to bring them home. And Israel will give up

Palestinian inmates for a body. They've done it before and will do it again. And they tend to give hundreds for one Israeli hostage, they'll give up hundreds of Palestinians in order to bring back one. And the other side knows this. They know this.

And they know they get their people back whether they give up a body, a corpse, or a living hostage.

Jason Scott Montoya (45:17)
Yeah, in terms

of geography, what was this talking about the massacre itself? Like what was the scale of the area that was invaded?

David Wittenberg (45:25)
Yeah, so it was an outdoor concert and I got to visit it. I took a tour with a survivor and the gentleman happened to be a tour guide and he was there during the attack, lost some friends. He said about six months he couldn't function, he just stayed in his room.

And at some point he was getting some therapy and just decided he's going to develop a tour of the region. He's going to talk about it. He's going to bring people to bear witness. And he's put together a tour that was really, really remarkable. It's whenever you visit, like if I visit a museum and it's a museum and there are artifacts there, okay. But if you actually go to a site where Kennedy was shot, where you're physically standing where Martin was

King was assassinated. There's something really, really powerful about being in that place where it actually occurred. You're looking through the eyes of the assassin. So to be in that space, to see, and he played for us a video, he was videotaping. It's electronic, I can't stand the music. It's electronic music festival.

And it's a small country, Israel. So he said there were about 4,000 people attending. There were different stages. You camped. There was no buildings around. It was basically an open space for this concert and people camped or slept in their cars.

You know, what had never occurred before, he said when you would hear sirens, you knew to either get down, you duck down, or if you could get to a shelter, you got to a concrete bunker or shelter. But the concern was always the shrapnel that these missiles would hit and they're packed with nails and other pieces designed to inflict injury. And he said, that's the danger. The missile hits.

one spot but then the strap will expand and you can hit anybody around or if the missiles intercepted it still has to fall. He said that's a danger. He says the danger was never that we were going to be invaded. So people made their way to these bunkers and they're standing in these concrete bunkers and now you have people driving up from Gaza. They've broken through the fence and

Jason Scott Montoya (47:27)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (47:40)
they're lobbing grenades into these concrete bunkers. literally, no one had ever experienced what happened on October 7th. It really was Israel's 9-11 moment. just, I think it was inconceivable to Israelis that this could occur, that a full-blown incursion could occur. 1,200 people were killed that day on October 7th.

I've heard a stat that if you extrapolate based on the population, it's the equivalent of 36,000 Americans being slaughtered in one day. mean, just imagine the magnitude. 9-11 was, I think, 2,500, 3,000, you know, a horrible, horrible moment for our country. imagine 10 times that number. It'd be, how do you show any restraint in the response?

Jason Scott Montoya (48:27)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (48:34)
Um, and the next day, think Israel had, and then the most controversial thing I say, Israel has shown restraint. Um, war is a horrible thing and you literally have an enemy that is burrowed underneath the city. They're burrowed underneath the hospitals, they're burrowed underneath the schools. Um, and civilians are, are unfortunately going to, uh, be involved. The babies, you know, it's hard.

Jason Scott Montoya (48:34)
Mm-hmm.

David Wittenberg (49:02)
wrenching to see the scene to come out of Gaza, the video. But I truly believe, and I know of Grace Backlash for this, I truly believe that Israel has done as much as it can to try and protect that civilian population, but it's really, really, really almost an impossible task.

Jason Scott Montoya (49:22)
Yeah,

could you elaborate on what are those things for people that are not familiar?

David Wittenberg (49:27)
So they literally have built, their funding comes mostly from the UN. They're given money and supplies. And so they'll take, I think I sent you some pictures. There's a town in Israel and they actually made a menorah out of these missiles, these projectiles. And our guide said everything in this projectile came from the UN. He said this, this.

And he's pointing to it, he said, this is a water pipe. This was supposed to be for their water system. It's a pipe. And instead of using it for the water system, they turn it into a missile. He says it's fueled. He says it's fertilizer and sugar is the rocket fuel. So everything comes from the UN. The schools are horribly, horribly anti-Semitic. What these kids are taught under the UN guidance.

It's just, it starts from birth. Our lives are difficult and this is the reason why. If these Jews didn't exist, we'd have great lives. And that's taught at an early, early age. I don't know how you unlearn it. There is a book out there, A Son of Hamas, where one of the leaders, the founders of Hamas, his son actually has broken away and lives in the United States now.

and tours and wrote a book. But he said, if this is so ingrained, it's so ingrained, the hatred, even if they made peace tomorrow, you're going to have to have a generation, a new generation. And that's why it just, doesn't seem to be an end to it. don't, I

Jason Scott Montoya (51:02)
Yeah. Well, so

in terms of the war itself, or the Gaza part of the war, you've mentioned that Israel is restraining itself. So could you give some specific examples of what that looks like?

David Wittenberg (51:13)
They create humanitarian zones. They basically tell the population, we're going into this town, you need to vacate. And that's an effort, that's an attempt to protect civilian lives. The downside is they can vacate some of their military as well, can go to the humanitarian zone. We know that the hostages have been in the humanitarian zones. The ones that were just released last week, they're telling stories that they were in these humanitarian zones.

You are kind of tipping your hat. There's stories of leaflets being dropped on areas saying, you know, we're going to conduct operations here. We've done it with the hospitals. There have been efforts to move patients. You know, again, there have been efforts. I don't think you see that in the world press.

And the reality is civilians will be killed. It's a war. How many civilians did we kill in Afghanistan? How many did we kill in Iraq? Hundreds of thousands. Was that on the nightly news? No. Should have been? Maybe. Could we have been more careful? Perhaps. But war is a horrible thing. It's horrible thing.

Jason Scott Montoya (52:22)
Yeah, so what would you say to that person who's sympathetic to the Gazans in the sense of they're just seeing all these civilians being killed in these attacks by Israel? How would you respond to them? How would you contextualize that for them?

David Wittenberg (52:31)
Right.

You know,

I really think that...

You know how the average Palestinian gets out from under Famas, I'm not sure. But I really think that the bad character, the bad actor here, the one that is most responsible are the Famas. So I think you have to choke them off.

Jason Scott Montoya (52:58)
So walk us through why you say that and how that connects to...

David Wittenberg (53:01)
Because they're the ones building

under the tunnel. There wasn't a single Israeli or a single Jew in Gaza on October 6, 2023. Not one. They were self-ruling. In fact, Israel provides their water, Israel provides their electricity. They were brought back in. They were forced to respond. They were forced to enter Gaza. I don't think there's a single Israeli who wants to be in Gaza.

You know, certainly if you're a young soldier, you want to go to Gaza? There's no way. There's no way. Do you have to? Yes. Yes, because they'll continue to perfect their bombs, get stronger. So this is an unfortunate October 7th was a game changer. It really was a 9-11 moment. And just as the US, I think all sides rallied around the president.

We've been attacked and we need to respond because it's not going to stop. If you don't respond to it, it's not as if it's going well, they feel the trouble. They're happy now. You know, that's all they wanted. And it's not as sure. Yeah. As I say, it's not just an Israel Jewish problem. These folks, Tomas, Hezbollah, they're militants. They're not accepting of any other.

Jason Scott Montoya (54:05)
Yeah, it won't magically disappear, yeah.

has to be addressed in some way.

David Wittenberg (54:22)
religion or position and you know, if they're not dealt with here, I do think, you know, let's say Israel disappeared tomorrow. They're not stopping. They're not stopping.

Jason Scott Montoya (54:35)
Yeah.

So how did the October 7th massacre, did it, like, where were you before that? And then how did that event change you? And let's talk about how that shifted in terms of you eventually wanting to go to Israel yourself.

David Wittenberg (54:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

So in the beginning I said, um, between 1977, 1988, I, um, had been to Israel, five summers from 1988 to 2019. did not go to Israel. Yeah. 2019, I took my wife to Israel and we spent, uh, 10, 11 days as tourists, you know, visiting sites. Um, I didn't have any immediate plans to return.

Jason Scott Montoya (55:05)
Mm.

David Wittenberg (55:20)
October 7th.

Even more than that moment, even more than that moment, it's been the world's reaction. that's stunning to me, the anti-Israel sentiment that Israel somehow is an oppressor, Israel deserved this. Did the US deserve 9-11? What did we do to deserve 9-11?

Jason Scott Montoya (55:30)
Tell me more about that and what is.

David Wittenberg (55:46)
That's what I would ask somebody. What did the US do? You know what we did? If you asked Ben Laden, I heard an interview. We were on Saudi territory. During the first Gulf War, we put troops in Saudi Arabia. This was so offensive to Ben Laden that he then set out on his campaign to attack this country. It was so reprehensible, so disgusting to Ben Laden that American troops set foot

in Saudi Arabia, even though it was to help another Muslim country, the Kuwaitis. was our initial reason for being there. So, you know, what did Israel do to deserve October 7th?

Jason Scott Montoya (56:18)
Mm-hmm.

David Wittenberg (56:25)
That would be my question for that person. So for the world to literally have a arrest warrant out for the Israeli leaders, that's unprecedented. And that's what's happened. You have countries' attacks on synagogues all throughout Europe. Australia's a real mess. I spoke to some Australians who were in Israel with me this last time, and they're terrified.

They're not getting support they feel from their government. And they're really, really, they don't know where to go. They feel that their ability to stay in Australia is coming to an end. And same with the French Jews. And that's not new. Things have not been great. As the Muslim population has increased throughout Europe, things have gotten worse for the Jewish population.

So again, it all comes down to where do we go? Where's our safe place? And the answer is Israel. Israel is the safe place for a Jew. It's the only Jewish, predominantly Jewish country in the world. It's the only country where a Jew from anywhere can get citizenship immediately. I can go to Israel tomorrow and become a citizen. And that's the value of Israel. And that I've always understood that

Jason Scott Montoya (57:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David Wittenberg (57:37)
God forbid things got bad enough here in the US that there's now some place for us to go. When it got bad in Europe in the 40s, we had no place to go. The world shut its doors. The doors were shut. You couldn't go to the US if you were a poor Russian Jew. You didn't have access to anywhere. And the result was that millions died. So now not only do we have a place, but they'll come get us.

Jason Scott Montoya (57:49)
And yeah.

Mm-hmm.

David Wittenberg (58:05)
They did it in Holland. The Israelis landed some planes in Holland. were 3000 soccer fans that were attending a soccer match in Holland and in the Netherlands, I should say. And there were some instances where they were being beaten up and being attacked by groups. And the feeling was the local police weren't helping out. So Israel literally sent some

It's not 747s anymore, whatever they send, it's 727s and brought them home. And they would explain to people whether you're observant, a Jew or not, the value of Israel to a Jew is if things got bad here.

Jason Scott Montoya (58:46)
You have someone that'll take you and get you. Yeah. Yeah.

David Wittenberg (58:49)
They'll take it. They'll come get us, whether you're

observant or not. That's the value of Israel for me.

Jason Scott Montoya (58:55)
You're not alone.

You're not going to be forsaken.

David Wittenberg (58:57)
Yeah, we've got A, we have an army and B, and as a history major, I can tell you that at some point our welcome will end in the United States.

Jason Scott Montoya (59:10)
You're welcome, yeah.

David Wittenberg (59:11)
Yeah,

it's inevitable. This country's been great for many immigrant groups and it's a good place right now. But if you look at the college campuses, this is a concern. This is a generation that is being raised to... I mean, a couple of people set themselves on fire to protest the US support of Israel. mean, that's that occasion.

So there's fear, there's fear in the Jewish community, what we're seeing on the college campuses. And I'm not a, I didn't vote for Trump, but there's a shining light in Trump's ascendancy. And that is that the hope is we won't tolerate anti-Jewish and anti-American sentiment on our college campuses.

Jason Scott Montoya (59:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:00:05)
that there will be repercussions, that these people will be reigned in. Because I see people in literally in the Palestinian, wrapped in the Palestinian flag and the kaffir, screaming not only anti-Israel sentiments, but anti-American. And there's a, free speech is a fine line, but to me, these are threats against the country and specifically against me, I feel it. So it's very personal.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:00:30)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:00:32)
So October 7th, the reaction to it from the world was, that's the shocking part. And my shot that Hamas attacked and killed 1200, you know, yeah, it shouldn't have happened. should have, Israelis should have been able to defend it. But it most shocking is the world's reaction that Israel is the pariah.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:00:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, because just the idea of the reaction being the catalyst, because I can relate to that in a lot of ways. When you see something horrible happen and then you see people either celebrate it or go along with it, whatever it might be, it has a very, from my own experience, it's stuck with me those moments in my journey.

David Wittenberg (1:01:08)
Right.

Yeah, yeah, that's the shocking part is the reaction of the college campuses and other world leaders, the issuing of arrest warrants for the president of Israel, prime minister. That's the shocking part. Yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:01:22)
Yeah.

Yeah. So that starts to brew in you and if for, so that's

2003, so about a year, that's brewing. So how do you go from that kind of, wow, this reaction to I'm going to help, yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:01:36)
Right.

I'm sorry. So my brother, who is more observant, who wears a yarmulke, a kippah,

Jason Scott Montoya (1:01:44)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:01:49)
He has been concerned about the role of the universities. He's been expressing it for years, that there's this real threat to Judaism coming out of the universities. He's been in tune with it. I haven't been ignorant to it. I just think it's the level and the vitriol.

is so shocking to me. he has a, you know, he's not independently wealthy. He needs to work, but he's always expressed a love of Israel and eventually he's younger than me. He's his mid fifties. And I think he always thought, one day I want to retire and go to Israel. There was not a, he was not going anytime soon after October 7th.

He says, I'm out of here. And again, it's the reaction. It's the reaction of the government, of our president at the time. Nobody was happy with Biden's reaction and tried to support both sides and both sides felt that they were being not supported. So he sells his home in Georgia and he says, I'm going. He has three kids. They're all college age.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:02:45)
Hmm.

David Wittenberg (1:03:07)
and he, left. So he went to Israel. He'd been, he knew where he wanted to be. He'd been there many times and he found an apartment and sold his house in Atlanta on an apartment. So he is there. He has, and it's called Aliyah. That's when someone becomes a Israeli citizen, you make Aliyah, which literally means going up. So he has made Aliyah. He's trying to figure out how he's going to make a living.

I think from the sale of the house, he's good for a year or two, but eventually he's going to need to make a living. And then my nephew, his son was in Israel on October 7th. So we had a firsthand view. We were able to communicate through WhatsApp and he's experiencing it because he was in school at the time in Israel, college age, and he starts to raise money.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:03:40)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:04:00)
And he says, we're going to buy supplies, whatever the soldiers need and take the supplies down to Gaza. So my brother said, well, you can raise money. You're not driving to the Gaza border. You know, we'll find someone else to deliver whatever you were able to purchase. you know, he's buying, know, winter was approaching. It's he's collecting money and collected thousands of dollars from people.

It's thermals, it's police jackets, it's whatever they need. Israel caught up about 300,000 reservists. They have their standing army and these are 18, 19, 20 year old kids. Some people are like time, but most of them serve their year and a half, two years and they're done. And they're children. These are 18, 19 year old kids and they serve their time and they're done.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:04:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:04:52)
and hopefully they're not involved in any conflict. Well, now you have a full-blown conflict. There's a war. So 300,000 reservists are called up. Well, now these are teachers, bus drivers, doctors. These are folks that have been out of service for some time and there's not a supply chain for these guys. So they're having to provide everything. They've got to find their old helmet. They've got to their...

Firearm for him, but you know the uniform probably doesn't fit anymore, you know It called me up 20 years after I've served my uniform not gonna fit me anymore So there's a great need to not only provide for these folks but now to fill the positions that they're leaving and School closed school closed for that whole semester. There was no school in Israel. So this country had been shut down

Jason Scott Montoya (1:05:24)
hehe

David Wittenberg (1:05:45)
And on October 8th, Hezbollah from Lebanon starts firing into Israel. And they aren't close enough that they don't even have to fire missiles. They've got these shoulder launchers and they have devastated cities in the north of Israel and destroyed them. And again, I've never seen CNN or ABC or NBC. I've never seen anybody really walking through those communities, but they were devastated.

And so now you have tens of thousands of people that are being housed in hotels in the interior of the country. And the government paid for a certain number of months and then you got to do what you can do. So this country is under siege from all directions. It's all in the north. You've got Famas. You've got the West Bank. Arabs are always a threat.

And now missiles are coming from Yemen. You know, it's a fourth front. So this country is really under siege and they can't afford to lose a war because it will be the end of the country. And I don't think I wouldn't count on anyone to bail them out and not counting on the US to help them out. I don't think I don't think it happens. So they really, really are on their own. But, you know, I'm

Hearing from my nephew who now has joined the Israeli military. My brother's now there and it's now very personal. It's always been personal but it's even more personal now. Now I know people. And I had cousins even before that. So yeah, there's this feeling of

Jason Scott Montoya (1:07:17)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:07:21)
What am I doing? How dare I continue with my my everyday life? You know, I go to work I come home. I've got a good life here But you know, how can I do nothing other than had money and so I was know, send money and Found a Facebook group that has a woman started who also was in country on October 7th just visiting her brother

Jason Scott Montoya (1:07:32)
Mm.

David Wittenberg (1:07:45)
And she sets up this Facebook group and its goal is really to kind of say, this is the need. We need people to pick lemons. We need people to pick pomegranates. We need people to help Israeli kids with learning Hebrew. They post whenever there's a funeral for a soldier. It'd be nice to have a big presence at the funeral. You can visit injured soldiers in the hospital.

A lot of it is preparation of meals or providing them with jackets and dermals, as I said. The reservists, I spent a day with a woman who was collecting shampoos and toothpaste and toothbrushes and just everyday things. again, the reservists were not, they were supposed to provide everything. So they're just called out. There's no...

They're not provided anything. So there's this real need and with this Facebook group, started to read about different opportunities. Most of them would direct you to a WhatsApp site and there was a hotel or two that kind of became a staging area for this group.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:08:48)
The Hub.

David Wittenberg (1:08:54)
So I'm reading and I'm like, okay, I can do this, I can do that, I can pick lemons, can, you whatever. So I start to inquire. I did find a organized group that had been around for, apparently for years, where people couldn't go and kind of volunteer for a week, two weeks, three weeks, whatever you want to do. And they put you on a base and...

you're doing menial tasks and the idea is to free up someone that would be doing that. If you weren't there, they would have to have people doing these tasks. So I signed up for it. There was a vetting. had an interview. They're most concerned with what's your reason for coming and...

And so I signed up for that so that it was going to be one week of that. And then the other week I was going to be at the hotel and just, I was just going to wait for opportunities. and I did that the first week. So I show up at the hotel, Monday was a rain out Monday. got there late Sunday night, get to the hotel Monday, raining the whole day. Israel has a rainy season. It's winter. it's just a washout and I'm, and I'm exhausted. I'm like,

I'm not doing anything today. me get my legs. Tuesday, I show up at this place. It's a distribution center. Really hard to find. It took me an hour to finally get there. I get there and there's one other guy there and he says, well, I guess they're not showing up today. So another lost day. I was really disappointed. And then I started to talk to other people. I found a place nearby my hotel.

There's a woman who comes from and she is living in Israel and she just says, kind of what my nephew was doing was collecting money. She's found out what are the needs. She has like this checklist that she gives to the logistics in the different bases. What do you need? And she's buying it. And so we were putting together

packets and soldiers would show up and on behalf of so and so we would load the cars. It's not weaponry, it's literally pocket knives. It was fleece and thermals and jackets and shampoo and toothpaste and just some kind of necessities again that weren't getting to everybody. And just to hear from these guys, how appreciative they were, the idea that

I'm thinking I'm only giving two weeks. It's not enough. It's not enough. And what I'm hearing from them is, thank you. Why would you leave your job for two weeks and do this? And having that conversation and just feeling the appreciation. that day when I was working, there was a gentleman from England and afterwards we were both hungry and we went for a walk.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:11:23)
Yeah

David Wittenberg (1:11:37)
and to get something to eat. I don't know how, but it's an interesting place, Israel. It's very, the people from all over the world. Someone said, the US may be a melting pot, but Israel's a salad. And you just have all these different people, really from all over the world. It's a young country.

So we were just, we were talking and people would overhear us what we were talking about and literally join in the conversation and the appreciation, you know, the fact that someone would come Jewish, not Jewish, that people would come was really, really uplifting for them. So that alone, you know, it felt like we were only touching a person here, touching that person there, but giving them, I don't know, hope's the right word, but

but giving them some solace that there are people that do care and they're coming from long distances all over the world, all over the world. And then the second week I did spend on a base, was a logistics base. We were given uniforms, army uniforms, and we were 43 in...

Jason Scott Montoya (1:12:33)
All over the world, yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:12:53)
On my base I was on, we all met at the airport. Once you're at the airport, they buy us into groups, we checked in and I think it was three different groups, probably 40, 45 people went in three different directions. So I went to a base in the South. There are 43 of us and over the week, I would say probably a dozen were not Jewish, which blew me away. was, was, had no.

Personal connection to Israel. They didn't have family members and and you know, would ask you why are you here? Why would you do this? And they came from Australia France Germany Britain Canada Argentina and there was a Colombian Gentleman who married this Australian woman. He was there and it was it was Some of them were they just saw the reaction in their countries and thought that

in their mind there was clearly a right and a wrong. one guy from Britain, not Jewish, he was just appalled. He was so appalled by the reaction in his country that he just felt he had to stop, felt he had to do something. And for some it was, they were devout Christians and it was a...

the support for the land of Israel and it's part of the Christian teachings for fundamentalists, for evangelicals, that Israel must exist. these folks, if you are trying to speed up the return of Jesus, you know,

and Israel has to exist for that to happen, and you could probably speak more about it, is really, really powerful. I these folks were all in. And just, you know, was just really, really uplifting to see that. But there is support. If I just watched the news all day long, it would be very depressing. There's no substitute for

Jason Scott Montoya (1:14:37)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:14:52)
physically being there experiencing it and It was uplifting it was uplifting it was for me

Jason Scott Montoya (1:14:59)
Yeah. What were some things you

learned that you didn't really, that changed how you saw it by being there?

or that you saw.

David Wittenberg (1:15:06)
Well, yeah, for dad, for dad, for me, it was was that moment where I'm no longer just talking about it. I'm not just sending a check. I've physically done something and it was very short. It's two weeks out of the year. I still have to make a living. I still have to work. have clients here. There's only so much time that I get to travel. So.

For me it was you know I've done something and and I had you nice reactions from from people that I have Told that what I've done. You you wanted to put me on a podcast, okay? So that reactions has been nice that people want to hear My what I've seen and what I've observed as far as You're changing it's

Jason Scott Montoya (1:15:52)
or deepening even if it's, yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:15:53)
I would say

well then I plan on going back sooner rather than later. Within the year I expect to be back there. And then maybe this time I do three weeks, I don't know. But certainly that commitment is, you know, I have a commitment for.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:15:57)
Yeah, okay.

Yeah, you don't want to be a passive participant.

You want to be actively involved at some level.

David Wittenberg (1:16:15)
Yes,

and for the sole reason, even though the idea was spend some money, every restaurant, Israel depends on tourism. Tourism is a big part of Israel's economy. And you can't find an airline that will fly there other than the Israeli airline. But I originally had a ticket on Delta, and Delta canceled. Every airline, every country.

Canceled other than LL LLC Israeli National Airline. They're the only ones flying so Delta just announced they're come back April 1st, So You know a lot of folks Would not who we were thinking about visiting Israel at some time or not. You could go right now And I don't blame them, you know There's an uncertainty. Do I feel it? Did I feel unsafe there not for a second?

Jason Scott Montoya (1:16:45)
Okay.

David Wittenberg (1:17:04)
Not for a second. While I was in Israel, there was a terrorist attack that killed more people in New Orleans than Israelis. And certainly the day to day, even when things were good in 2019, when they went to Israel, people are like, oh, is it safe? it safe? The day to day murders that we experience in Atlanta, in Georgia, more people on any given day are going to be killed in Atlanta than in Israel.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:17:12)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, in America. Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:17:33)
Yeah, this is

not, this is not, it's a, we have issues, we have problems.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:17:38)
Yeah.

How did the, so when you talk to people there like, and just about the situ, know, this massacre, the war, all of these pieces, how did it make them more optimistic, more pessimistic? Do they have less hope, more hope? they, how did it change how they saw it and what they see for the future?

David Wittenberg (1:17:52)
Now

Well, the person I asked that question, I was most interested in was our guide who escaped being killed. And I asked him, I said, before October 7th, would you have thought we could make peace, that there's some room, that we could have peace here, that we could coexist? And he said, yeah, absolutely. And I said, what about now? He said, he said, no, we can't.

It's impossible. It's impossible. And that's very sad. And I'm sure there are folks on the other side who may have, before October 7th. And I get it. If you are a Gazan and your home has been destroyed, you've probably made an enemy for life. I get that. Regardless of the reasons, you can't tell someone who's been displaced or their home has been destroyed, this is the reason. It's because you people attacked first.

You can't tell a child. We know there are going be enemies. It's a cycle. How it ends, I don't know. Do I see an end to it? No. I really think of what Israel is doing as buying some years. So for the next 10, 15, 20 years, maybe there's peace because Israel has...

knock down their ability, but is the next generation going to rise up and be, yeah. would it help if Iran wasn't a player? Iran wasn't involved in this? Yes. would someone else fill that void? Possibly. Is it likely? Probably. and I think a big

Reason for that is again you have a entire region of the world that has does not have a democracy. There's no There's no other voice other than the voice of the leaders and there's value in there it works that dynamic of You know your life might be hard, but it's because these people are making it hard whether it be the Americans and the Israelis

These people are making your life hard and it allows them to rule.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:20:05)
Yeah. So what do you, so

this past week, we, uh, news breaks, there's a ceasefire of some sort. What, do you make of that, that, um, agreement situation?

David Wittenberg (1:20:17)
We're giving back killers giving back killers

Jason Scott Montoya (1:20:18)
So is

there a trade involved in this ceasefire?

David Wittenberg (1:20:22)
They're going to get 2,000. They're going to get 33. They're going to get 2,000 Palestinian detainees and their killers. Some have done.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:20:24)
Okay.

So it's

a releasing of 2,000 criminals for the hostages, is that, okay.

David Wittenberg (1:20:36)
Right,

right. It's always been Israel literally gave back one, they gave back a thousand Palestinians for one Israeli soldier that had been kidnapped a few years back. And one of the guys that was released goes on to be Sinemar. was in jail and he was part of the release. So we know that we are releasing killers and we know that they will continue.

The question is where do you release them to? Do you put them in Madagascar or do you release them to Palestinian controlled areas?

Jason Scott Montoya (1:21:13)
Hmm.

Yeah.

So as far as the C-Spar itself though, in terms of, you just see that as a temporary bandaid that eventually get ripped and reopened.

David Wittenberg (1:21:30)
Yeah, they're buying some years. They're buying some years. And unfortunately, they'll have to keep a presence in Gaza. Again, there's not a Jew, not an Israeli in Gaza on October 6, 2023. There will be now. They cannot not have eyes in Gaza to see what's going on.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:21:33)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you were to, as much, you know, I know you want to support Israel, but in terms of like, what do you wish they would have done different? How would you criticize how they've handled things or would you?

David Wittenberg (1:22:01)
Oh, it never should have happened. This

was an invasion and people need to be held accountable. They're still in the midst of their war. think Netanyahu has a lot of explaining to do how this occurred. And I think like anything, you'll find out that there were warning signs and things were ignored.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:22:23)
Yeah, and are there things that he did as a leader of the country to exacerbate the issue and the problem?

David Wittenberg (1:22:30)
Well,

he had already divided the country. The country was having all kinds of protests before October 7th. He's been in power a long time. Now gets elected, it's an election, but he's been in power a long time and he was briefly out of power, but then worked his way back in because it's a parliamentary system. You have multiple parties, so you can form coalitions.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:22:56)
Okay.

David Wittenberg (1:22:56)
And

he has put himself in some very right wing. He's aligned himself with some people would say radicals on the right hand side, on the religious side. There are things that he wasn't being able to get done with the equivalent of their Supreme Court. And he was trying to change.

changed some laws and people were in the streets protesting. So there was a real split between his party and the other main parties. So there were problems beforehand. As far as the reaction to me, it's the fact that this occurred. People need to be held accountable and ultimately he was the guy in charge on that day.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:23:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

And do you think

he's going to be held accountable for that?

David Wittenberg (1:23:38)
Within Israel, ultimately I do. When this has settled down and I think he knows it. So some may say, well, he's keeping this going because he knows once it's over, you know, he's going to, he's going to, there's going to be inquiries. So yeah, I think he, I think that's a problem. He's, you know, on the one hand, I, we need someone that's tough right now.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:23:49)
He's done.

David Wittenberg (1:24:01)
But on the other hand, is this being exacerbated? Is it going on longer than it needed to because you have someone in power who probably can't afford to have an end. So that's a problem. I'm a firm believer that every four to eight years the government should change hands. that's what we used to do in this country.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:24:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:24:24)
It's just not always supposed to be Republican. They operate for eight years and then we switch. And it's worked for 200 plus years. So I believe in that model in other countries as well. There's value in the other voice being heard.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:24:34)
Yeah.

Yeah. So how has this whole story and this experience, how has it changed you? Who are you today that's different than you were two years ago or five years ago?

David Wittenberg (1:24:56)
Yeah, so I think I would be...

more apologetic about my views, my bias, what you it a bias, because I have a bias. I may have said, yeah, Israel needs to feel secure, but it shouldn't allow these communities to be built in the West Bank. And there has to be some balance. And now I'm...

just feeling unapologetically, you know, there really is a right and a wrong. And it really comes down to what it was 76 years ago. And that was a, country was divided whether you like the lines or not. This was your opportunity to be a nation. And Israel says, okay, we'll be a nation. On May 14th, 1948.

And the Palestinians said, no, we're not going to share the land. We're going to wipe you out. And then we'll have it all, you know, why do we need to share the land? And they should have won. They had the arms, had the numbers. There's no good explanation for why Israel won that war. But Israel won. And that Palestinian attitude of we're not going to share the land continues to today, certainly within the

leaders of the Palestinian movement. So whenever they, you always hear Israel needs to accept the two state solution, two state solution. It's not Israel. It's not Israel. It's really the Palestinians that have not accepted Israel's right to exist, whatever the lines may be. And that's when you hear the, from the river to the sea. That means there is no Israel. That's what that means. So when these students are chanting from the river to the sea,

They're chanting for the elimination of the state of Israel. So I'm feeling unapologetically Zionistic. Yeah, that Israel at this time in history needs to be strong, really strong. It would be wonderful if Israel in the future can not have a mandatory military service.

and not have the weapons it has and not put so much of its GDP into its own defense. I pray for that day, I really do. And I think the world will benefit. I think the technology, the advancements that come from this tiny country in science and medicine, it's really remarkable. A number of Nobel Prize winners that have come. And if Israel could...

put even more of its energy into that versus into the military and into security. I really think the whole world will benefit.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:27:32)
Yeah. And so how, so it sounds like you've been emboldened. Is it just on this topic or do you feel like just even issues that you care about in other areas that you feel like you have a voice that you need to speak out?

David Wittenberg (1:27:47)
Certainly this is at the forefront.

You know, personally, I've never felt the need to convince anyone of anything. If you want to believe what you believe, I'll have a conversation about it. But I've never felt the need to, you know, whether it be my own kids, you need to be this, you need to be a doctor or lawyer. know, all I say to my kids is you need to be independent. I don't want to be, you know, you can't live in my house forever.

You've got to do something, be independent. You know, as far as other aspects of my life, I've never felt the need to have to bring someone to my way of thinking. And honestly, where that comes from in my mind is, and it's one of my favorite things about Judaism, is we don't proselytize. don't, you don't have to be Jewish to...

to go to heaven. You don't have to be a practicing Jew. And I think that's very unique. The other major religion, that's my belief, if you don't believe in Muhammad or Jesus, things are not, your afterlife is not gonna be pleasant. That concept doesn't exist in Judaism. You don't have to be Jewish, Jason. You can be a decent person. You can achieve, you can...

have a decent afterlife and be a non-Jew. That's unheard of. We're actually supposed to discourage someone from converting. We literally discourage it. Why would you want to be Jewish? You don't want to be Jewish. We discourage. And that's why there's so few of us. If we had this army, we could take it around the world.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:29:15)
Yeah

David Wittenberg (1:29:29)
And I think that makes you more tolerant. If you have the belief that my belief is the only belief, the right belief, are you going to be tolerant of other views? I don't think I'm going tougher.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:29:40)
Yeah,

so how do you intersect your new and bolded voice with this idea of tolerance in the face of evil?

David Wittenberg (1:29:49)
Yeah, so, It's interesting because there's a guy in a group not Jewish Younger than me. you know my age has something to do with I think my reaction So he says he lives in a predominantly muslim neighborhood in australia And he said every time when these free palestine signs goes up on the post the the light post he rips them down

And he says every day he wears something with some sort of Hebrew writing. And he's looking for trouble. He's looking for a fight. And another guy, a guy from England, he says he's been to jail over the issue. He's been arrested. So I'm not there. I'm not looking for a fight. I don't want to go to jail. So I'm not going to try and I'm not going to, and I...

Jason Scott Montoya (1:30:23)
Hahaha

David Wittenberg (1:30:39)
You know, I have a after 9 11 after they call 7 10 October 7th, but you put the month first so they say 7 10 so october 7th in israel and 7 10 so after october 7th, I Went on amazon. I got an israeli shirt. You have the flag and says israel and hebrew And then I got another one and says i'm yisrael. Hi all in hebrew. Yeah, the nation of israel lives people of israel live

Jason Scott Montoya (1:30:51)
Okay.

David Wittenberg (1:31:10)
And I will wear it if I go to rural Georgia. I'll wear my Israel shirt and I get reactions because the fundamental, the Baptist, the fundamentalists and evangelicals are very supportive. They've been wonderful. It's one the most pleasant things that has come out of this. And then they love it. They love the shirt. You know, you've been to Israel, you live in Israel, you talk to me. Would I wear that same on the belt line in Atlanta? I haven't.

I haven't thought about it. I wear my Israel shirt because I'm going to get reactions and they're not going to be positive. I know that they won't be positive. most of the reason I wouldn't wear it before I went to Israel would be one, I can't promise my, I'm not a pacifist. can't, as we started off, I said I used to get into altercations and I'm still that guy.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:32:04)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:32:05)
not looking for the

trouble, but I'm not going to back away from it. And so I'm not looking for that fight. And usually I would have my wife by my side and it wouldn't play well with her. So I'm not looking for that trouble. Would I wear it today? I'm more inclined to.

But maybe with the understanding, you're going to get reactions.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:32:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. To not be silent, be,

but not be provocative, but to be active.

David Wittenberg (1:32:32)
And, and, and I

think I'll wear it. And, um, because the guy, the guy said a lot of times he would wear something and he's looking for a fight and what he gets is support. says, he, you know, he goes here and people's, finds he's getting support. So that kind of was like, yeah, that'd be kind of, kind of neat. And I think I just have to take the attitude that even if I get reactions, if it's a verbal reaction, you know, whatever it may be, I'll just keep walking. That has to be the mindset.

If someone throws something at me, spits at me, it's a different animal. But if it's just a verbal, know, then okay, you know, I'll just keep walking. But I may get that support too and let me show that support. me show other people, because I know there are other people that feel like I do, let them feel that support. And so that's, I haven't done it yet, but I'm going to do it. I'm going wear my Israel shirt and walk down the Beltline.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:33:28)
Yeah, yeah,

David Wittenberg (1:33:31)
yeah.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:33:31)
yeah, yeah. So you've shared a lot today. Is there anything you want to share that you haven't yet had a chance to?

David Wittenberg (1:33:38)
There's a lot.

think I've gotten the main points. you know, I hope.

I hope I don't come off as, I don't view myself as a radical. And I do understand there's got to be an opposing view, but I do think facts are facts. And there are facts like the creation of Israel and the denial of the creation of a Palestinian state in 1948. They say, I mean, this is a fact.

And it is a fact that in 67 they attacked and there was a war and they lost badly. And in 73, they lost another war. There are facts. And the fact that there was this peace accord and Israel gave back the Sinai and Israel gave back Gaza. And in return, they're supposed to be peace. But in return, they got an intifada. So, you know, there are facts. And I don't think the facts can be debated.

And I think if you ask most Palestinians today, should Israel exist? They're going to say no. If you still ask most Jews, before October 7th, I think the vast majority of Israelis say yes, there has to be a Palestine. Palestine has to exist. Attitudes change. Yeah, perhaps. They're still in the war, so the attitudes have changed right now. But I think before, after, the Palestinian reaction would have been no.

We're not sharing the land. That's unfortunate because it's kept them from being successful. Because they're capable. Everybody's capable. There's no people that can't be successful that can't... There's a formula for it. I always say family support and education. That's the formula.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:35:26)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:35:28)
Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the powers of the there's value in they're not educating their entire population in these dictatorships. I don't think they want people to be upwardly mobile. They want them to stay where they are. And it's that lack of any opportunity, any hope that creates radicals, creates militants. We always have that in this country.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:35:49)
Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:35:52)
You could be a bitch digger one day and you can make it or at least make it better for your children, at a minimum for your children. Okay, my life's gonna be hard, I'm gonna work hard, I'm gonna work two jobs, but my kids are gonna get it.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:35:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:36:05)
We have that not every country people realize not every country has that

Jason Scott Montoya (1:36:10)
Yeah. Yeah, we take it for granted. Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:36:11)
that hope does not exist.

Yeah, the upward mobility doesn't exist in huge swaths of this world. think I've said what I want to say. the goal is never to offend and I know that I do have a bias. So, would be the first to tell you I have a bias.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:36:21)
Yeah. Anything else?

Yeah.

Yeah.

David Wittenberg (1:36:35)
But

I appreciate your letting me be heard. yeah, I mean, am I helpful?

I don't see an end to it, but it would be a nice surprise.

Jason Scott Montoya (1:36:47)
Yeah. Well, David, thank you so much for sharing your story and your perspective and helping us to listen to learn today.

David Wittenberg (1:36:50)
that it does.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you having me. Thank you.

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