Written by Jason Montoya. Posted in Christian Faith.

Christian Mindfulness & Meditation — With Sarah Grace Young of Calming Grace

Thank you for joining this Listen-To-Learn episode of the Share Life Podcast. I'm joined by Sarah Grace Young, a follower of Jesus, wife, ex-pat, teacher, creative, introvert, and a blogger at CalmingGrace.com; encouraging Christian mindfulness and meditation. She seeks to calm anxious minds by God's grace: and with faith, mindfulness, and journaling.

I'm excited to share this conversation I had with Sarah because the topic of Christian mindfulness and meditation is critical in our walk with Jesus (as difficult as it can be for us all) and highly relevant in the distracted world we live in. We're also told in scriptures to "take our thoughts captive", to "renew our minds", and to submit our will to Christ but we're not often taught how to do that. This conversation is intended to give us practical insights of which we can apply today.

In the following conversation, we're also going to discuss God, humanity's brokenness, keys to Christian mindfulness and meditation, the differences and similarities between Christian and other practices, the role of scripture, God constructed "safe places", our connection with God, and available tools that we should use or stay away from.

Discussion Topics

Here is a summary of the topics we cover in this conversation.

God's presence (contrasted with the state of humanity), the Holy Spirit, the key to Christian meditation/contemplation, and how these relate to prayer and worship.
The importance of knowing and meditating on Scripture, allowing God to "renew our minds" according to His Word, and the importance of Christ shaping our interpretation of Scripture.
How God's grace and forgiveness create a "safe space" for us to be ourselves with God, how we're to pray honestly and deeply, being open with Him without fear of condemnation. judgment, or shame, and how God's non-judging and loving presence allows us to bring the uncomfortable or difficult things in our hearts and minds to Him for healing.
Having an embodied, incarnational view of mindfulness, living in the present in our physical reality, knowing Christ is present with us, even in every day and the ordinary,
How do these practices help us stay connected to God, the source of life and goodness? How do they foster God protecting (proactively) and rectifying us (reactively)?
How we can use tools like CBT and mindfulness to have self-awareness and control over how our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors influence each other? What about systems and software, like the app/movement 10 percent better or Calm? What about other religious practices?

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Unedited Transcript

Jason Montoya	00:00:00	Thank you for joining this Listen to Learn episode of the Share Life podcast. Today I am joined by Sarah Grace Young, a follower of Jesus wife, expat, teacher, creative introvert, and a This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. She's encouraging Christian mindfulness and meditation to two topics we'll be discussing today. And she seeks to calm, anxious minds by God's grace and with faith, mindfulness, and journaling. I'm excited to have this conversation with Sarah today because I think the topic of Christian mindfulness and meditation is critical in our walk with Jesus, as difficult as it can be for all of us at different times and seasons, but it's also highly relevant in the distracted world we live in. We're also told in scriptures to take our thoughts captive, to renew our minds and to submit our will to Christ. But we're not often taught exactly how to do this. This conversation is intended to give us a practical s the the practical steps we can take today, tomorrow, in the weeks to come.
Jason Montoya	00:00:59	In fact, Sarah has a, an ebook that you can, um, check out, um, to actually walk you through the steps and she'll be sharing a little bit about that in the following conversation. We're also going to discuss about God humanity's brokenness, keys to Christian mindfulness and meditation, the differences in similarities between Christian and other practices, the role of scripture God constructed, safe places our connection with God, and available tools that we should use or stay away from. Before we dive into this topic, Sarah, tell us about you, how you ended up focused on Christian mindfulness and meditation and why you're compelled to share it with others.
Sarah Young	00:01:38	All right. Well, first of all, thank you so much, Jason, for inviting me to share on your podcast. Yeah, it's really privilege.
Jason Montoya	00:01:46	Yeah, you're welcome. Um,
Sarah Young	00:01:48	<laugh>. So my name is Sarah. Um, I'm from Colorado and I currently live in Bogota, Columbia with my husband. So I moved here about seven years ago. I was a missionary and a teacher of English as a second language. Um, for a bit of my background, I grew up in church, um, in what you could call the charismatic or Pentecostal tradition. Okay. So I always had a sense of God's love and God's presence with me and a strong love for his word. Um, then I studied at a Christian university, and that's where I started learning more about theology and church history and different Christian traditions.
Jason Montoya	00:02:30	Okay. And, um, did that open up your world quite a bit once Yeah. By going there in terms of your own denominational experience? Yeah. <laugh>.
Sarah Young	00:02:38	Yeah, because I, um, didn't know a lot about various Christian traditions and theology, so Mm. Uh, that was kind of my first introduction to, um, Christian meditation and Okay. Also the more contemplative side of spirituality.
Jason Montoya	00:02:57	Yeah.
Sarah Young	00:02:59	Um, and the more I learned about it, um, the more I realized it wasn't really that far removed from charismatic tradition. I grew up in okay with its focus on God's presence. Um, but at the same time, there was always sort of the separation between my spiritual life, uh, and my own mental health and wellbeing, and I didn't always know how my faith actually made a difference in my everyday life. Okay. I think that's a common issue for a lot of Christians to have. Yeah. Sort of a divide between the spiritual and the physical. Um, but I think understanding the gospel can help us restore that broken relationship and have, um, wholeness between those things.
Jason Montoya	00:03:48	Yeah. So,
Sarah Young	00:03:49	Um, I always struggled with anxiety, um, and I used to get
Jason Montoya	00:03:54	Up like even from a young age, or is that what Yeah,
Sarah Young	00:03:57	Yeah, it was, um, I guess I've had sort of different kinds of social anxiety and just, um, being anxious about, um, the future and worried. So I used to kind of catastrophize a lot and get caught up in my thoughts. Yeah. Um, and it was about four or five years ago that I was in a season of, um, a lot of anxiety and stress and, um, my mind was just in overdrive all the time. Yeah. So I started going to therapy and, um, my, my therapist or my counselor, um, started showing me some different tools to help me manage. And, uh, one of those tools was mindfulness. Yeah. Um, so I pretty much taught myself about mindfulness mm-hmm. <affirmative> from online courses and meditation apps and other resources, and along the way I found a lot of consistencies between mindfulness and the Bible and Christian Yeah. Theology. Um, so using mindfulness together with my Christian faith made a big difference in helping me to manage, um, stress and anxiety.
Jason Montoya	00:05:19	Yeah. And did, would you, um, uh, just a quick question on the, like you were in a season where really needed this resource, this tool mm-hmm. <affirmative>, do you think this is something that there is a sense of you gotta have a a a felt pain before you can learn it? Or do you think we can learn it before that season so when that season comes, we're ready for it? What, what do you think?
Sarah Young	00:05:47	I think ideally we would learn it before we come into that difficult season. Yeah. Um, and mindfulness, it is really more preventative, if that's the word. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, yeah. The idea is to develop a mindful attitude, um, in your daily life so that you can kind of bring that into difficult situations when they come up.
Jason Montoya	00:06:12	Yeah. Okay. And so what I'm hearing from you also is this really had a, a, a real deep, powerful impact on you mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you had to share it with others. Is, is that what I'm hearing?
Sarah Young	00:06:28	Yeah, yeah. I think, um, I was really kind of excited to find the connection, um, but between just like the science of psychology of mindfulness Yeah. And, um, and the Bible and finding all these Bible verses about it. And, um, so when I was in the season, I couldn't find a lot of, uh, resources for it from a Christian perspective. So I think one of my goals in starting my website, um, was to create a resource for Christians, um, who want to learn more about mindfulness from a Christian perspective.
Jason Montoya	00:07:13	Yeah. So why do you think that it's so anemic? Because I, I share that lament with you and, and, um, and it seems like as long as Christianity's been around, someone should have solved this, and I'm sure there are many who have, and it's just, perhaps I'm not aware of it or it's gotten sort of forgotten, but, or maybe it's a seasonal thing where it's kind of eras of Christianity, it comes and goes, but I don't know what, how would, how do you explain that? How do you reconcile that that anemic ness of this seems like a wonderful thing for us to be, um, aware of and, and, and disciplined in, and yet it's not, maybe, what would you say to that?
Sarah Young	00:07:53	I think, um, to some extent Christians have a sort of cautious attitude towards mindfulness because, um, in kind of the popular, um, mindset, it's connected with Buddhism or new age spirituality.
Jason Montoya	00:08:12	Yeah.
Sarah Young	00:08:13	And so a lot of Christians kind of tend to avoid it because of that connotation. Yeah. Um, and it's true that mindfulness does have some, some roots in, um, in Buddhism, but if you look at what it actually is, um, we'll see that it's, um, it's equally in the Bible <laugh>. Yeah. It's equally,
Jason Montoya	00:08:41	Is it simply a, a shallow word, uh, a shared word that because the word is shared, we kind of give it that association? Or is it deeper than that?
Sarah Young	00:08:54	I think so, and I think it's, um, it's really a matter of coming to understand what is actually meant by the word mindfulness. And, um, when we understand what mindfulness is, then we can see that it doesn't have to do with any religion in particular mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's more skill or a mental, um, skill. So, um, we can see how, um, just our Christian faith can also speak into it
Jason Montoya	00:09:28	<laugh>. Yeah. Makes, well, I guess maybe let's start there. Like, how, how would you define Christian mindfulness? How would you define Christian meditation? I think start with those two and, and then we can kind of unpack that from there.
Sarah Young	00:09:44	Yeah. So popular definition of mindfulness would just be living in the present mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, but more specifically, um, it's living in the present with three specific attitudes. Okay. Um, and so I'll talk about these three aspects and I'll talk about how each one ties into our Christian faith.
Jason Montoya	00:10:10	Okay.
Sarah Young	00:10:10	So the first, first one is present moment awareness. Um, just being aware of our experiences, our thoughts and emotions in this present moment. Um, and I think for Christians, we know that God is present with us and, um, we can always turn our attention to his presence with us, um, by the Holy Spirit living in us and with us, um, in every moment of our day. So we can always be present with God. Um, the second aspect is being intentional about this awareness. Yeah. Um, paying attention on purpose, choosing to make, um, choosing to pay attention in the present moment. And I think this ties in with how we are taught to do everything we do for the purpose of the glory of God. Like in, um, Colossians three, it says, do everything whether eating or drinking or whatever you do mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, to glorify God. So when we become intentional about living in the present, we can do everything, whether it's, you know, cooking or cleaning or working Yeah. Or reading whatever we can make the decision to do it, um, for the purpose of glorifying God. Okay. And then the third aspect of mindfulness is non-judgmental awareness. Okay. And so this is paying attention to our experiences, um, without making judgment calls about whether something is good or bad mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but being more open and curious about our experiences
Jason Montoya	00:12:06	And, and our, our own or others, or both.
Sarah Young	00:12:10	Um, usually it's about our own experiences, but it's also having a non-judgmental attitude towards others. Definitely.
Jason Montoya	00:12:18	Yeah. Okay.
Sarah Young	00:12:19	Um, and I think this ties in with, um, just the gospel of grace, how, how God has a non-judgmental attitude towards us mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, if our faith in Christ, there's no condemnation for us. And, um, he always responds to us with grace and forgiveness. And so knowing that can also help us have, um, kind of a non-judgmental attitude towards ourselves and give ourselves the same, same grace that God gives us.
Jason Montoya	00:12:51	Yeah. And so what is, um, you know, I guess let's talk about this idea of God's presence, his involvement in, in these three facets of, of it, and, and how that contrasts more directly with, with our own brokenness
Sarah Young	00:13:11	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Um, I think it's important to recognize just that when our faith is in Christ, um, we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us, and God is always present with us. So, um, I would say it comes to our brokenness, um, because of the fall and because of sin. Um, we are dealing with broken relationships on a daily basis. And I think it's not only broken relationships with others, but also between ourselves and God, um, between ourselves and God's creation. Yeah. And even our relationship with ourselves. Okay. Um, and so I think, um, this is the result of sin entering the world and, and human heart. And part of, um, I guess part of mindfulness is kind of trying to restore that brokenness, um, and see how God can bring wholeness back into these relationships, um, and recognizing God's presence, um, and just seeing how God is actively involved in Yeah. In these relationships and seeing how, how he's, he's in all the details and he can bring wholeness back into all these details.
Jason Montoya	00:14:57	Yeah. And so the, so there's, there's, um, when Christians, we place our faith in Christ to restore us to invite the Holy Spirit in. And, and I, I think what I'm hearing from you is that once that happens, then it's a matter of God working that out in us. But when we don't, when we're not, when we don't place our faith in Christ, we are, we are subject to the burden that, that, that burden that that, that we feel in either case. Right. But we have, we, and then we attempt to do other things to sort of compensate or, or, um, cope with that, or is, am I sort of contrasting that in a way that you would agree with?
Sarah Young	00:15:46	Yeah, I think, I guess like without God, we're left to ourselves and our own devices, and yeah. I think, um, yeah, just understanding the gospel is that Christ, you know, took our brokenness and took our sin, and we, and when we put our faith in him, um, he enters into our lives and, and we can trust him to kind of do the work of, um, transforming us in that way.
Jason Montoya	00:16:19	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I guess, um, you know, the Holy Spirit has this role, um, we have our role. How would you, how would you sort of distinguish the, the difference between the two and, and our part in that? Um, or are, are just getting out of the way, maybe is only our part, you know, <laugh>,
Sarah Young	00:16:45	I think, um, we should be intentional about, um, kind of putting ourselves before God mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, making the space and time to open our hearts to God in prayer and worship and, um, in reading the word. So I think that is our responsibility to, um, make ourselves available. Yeah. Um, but then it's not that we do the transformation, it's that the Holy Spirit is the one who transforms us
Jason Montoya	00:17:24	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so how does, how would you say mindfulness differs from like, prayer and worship
Sarah Young	00:17:33	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>? Um, well, I think, um, it's important to distinguish between mindfulness and meditation. Okay. Um, if I could go back
Jason Montoya	00:17:47	To that. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.
Sarah Young	00:17:49	A bit about meditation. Um, so mindfulness is like a set of skills, a set of mindsets, um, and meditation is really just a way to practice or cultivate those skills. Um, and there are different kinds of meditation. So there's mindfulness meditation, which is usually focusing on, um, a a an aspect of your present moment experience, such as your breath Okay. Or your body or the sound that you can hear. Um, and that's the object of focus in mindfulness meditation. And it's really kind of just like a workout for your attention, like you're strengthening the muscle or practicing the habit so that you can use it more in your daily life. Yeah. But, um, this is different from what we usually think of a Christian meditation.
Jason Montoya	00:18:52	Okay.
Sarah Young	00:18:53	Um, Christian meditation is usually based on reading and thinking about God's word. Um, okay. And God's presence. And, um, there's a lot of different methods, but it usually involves reading a few verses of scripture, um, thinking about it, listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying through it, um, and then responding in prayer. And there's also things like contemplative prayer, which really just involves resting and sitting quietly in God's presence Yeah. And allowing him to work in our hearts. Um, so I think the, there are these specific meditation methods that we can practice. Um, yeah. And also, um, I guess it relates to like prayer and worship because, um, we can bring the same attitude mm-hmm. <affirmative> in prayer, um, for example, uh, for example, the non, non-judgmental attitude, um, coming into God's presence knowing that we are forgiven. Um, yeah. When we pray, like, um, we can know that Christ has, has opened up the way for us to enter God's presence, um, with confidence, and, um, we can pray and bring the things to God that we're struggling with the difficult, the broken things, um, knowing that God will respond with his grace and his compassion
Jason Montoya	00:20:33	Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're not left wondering, like almost making this, uh, ac this sort of offer, hoping for a response. We, we can actually know what we're gonna get in return response. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.
Sarah Young	00:20:49	Yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's trusting just that, that, um, God's going to respond to us with his love. Um, he doesn't respond with, um, anger or judgment, and Yeah. Because we're in Christ, we are forgiven and we're Yeah. Under, under his grace.
Jason Montoya	00:21:09	So I guess unwrap that a little bit, because that, that either implies that, um, well, like I mentioned earlier, for those that are not Christians, they feel the weight. But even in, within Christianity or different denominations or just even certain communities, that weight of judgment and condemnation can be, uh, be exuded by, by the leadership or the people in that community, with the people around them. Um, so in other words, perhaps there is a bad theology at play in, in certain aspects or, or veins of Christianity. What, what would you speak to that? Would you agree with that?
Sarah Young	00:21:48	Well, I think, um, there are some churches or people who kind of expect, um, expect the Christian life to be more of, um, like cleaning yourself up first. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, kind of, you have to be good and you have to perform, um, to, to get God's favor or something. Yeah. And I would say that's the opposite of the gospel. Um, and using, using shame or judgment as a motivator for, um, changing behavior is not gonna work. It doesn't ever help anyone grow, I think. Yeah. Because, um, you know, God uses his love and his grace to draw us to change how we live. Yeah. And, um, I guess, yeah, there's a verse says, it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so,
Jason Montoya	00:23:00	Well, and that makes me think if we use shame and guilt as a, as a hammer, the, the nat, our natural response is defensiveness. It's to self justify. Whereas Grace says, yeah, you are messed up, but I love you anyway, except you anyway. And now I'm sort of pulled out of that, um, that fortress. Does that make, does that make sense?
Sarah Young	00:23:24	Yeah. I think it's, um, like, God, God creates this atmosphere for us to be free to express, um, our brokenness. Yeah. Um, cause like, if we really believe that he is, um, a God of love and he responds with grace, um, we don't have to fear any, um, judgment or condemnation when we, when we bring our, our messiness and our, uh, difficult situations and just, um, yeah, we can open up our hearts to his, um, his healing and his love.
Jason Montoya	00:24:15	Yeah. So let's kind of dive in deeper into the Christian meditation and contemplation and the keys to it, the importance of, of, um, scripture. Let's, uh, would you take us a little deeper into that?
Sarah Young	00:24:31	All right. Yeah. So I think it's important to read and know scripture, um, to, to know kind of how, how God wants us to form our minds and our ways of thinking. Um, and meditating on scripture is one way to allow God to, um, transform us and to renew our minds. Um, so when we're meditating on scripture, it's, it's a way to, um, open, open our minds to what the Holy Spirit wants to, wants to teach us. Yeah. And, um,
Jason Montoya	00:25:20	And I, I guess for, well, for those that might not even really understand what that means, meditating on scripture, and you've got that ebook that I think will help people walk through this if they wanna go get that on your website, but like, in real, like specific terms, like, what does it mean? Does it mean just reading the scripture and then just thinking about it? Is that kind of how you, or is it, is it more structured than, than that?
Sarah Young	00:25:45	Um, uh, in the most basic terms, it's reading a passage of scripture and, um, thinking about it, but there are more like, um, specific ways to do it. And, um, so for Christian meditation, usually you would, um, kind of start with preparation by praying, um, opening, opening your heart to God and asking God to teach you something through his word, um, kind of submitting the time to God. Um, and then the next step would be to read a passage or a verse of the Bible. Uh, read it slowly a few times, um, and notice what stands out to you from, from that passage mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so notice if there are words or phrases or images or concepts that kind of stand out to you. And then think about those words and phrases and, um, consider what, what God might be trying to teach you through those ideas. Yeah. Um, it's like, uh, noticing what the Holy Spirit is highlighting to you. And so then after, after this reading, the next step would be responding or, um, praying. And, um, it's, it would be like, uh, having a dialogue or having a conversation with God about what you've seen in the passage. Um, and you can respond or pray with questions, um, talk to God about how you feel about this passage. Um, basically just have a conversation with God about what, um, what you've seen in the passage.
Jason Montoya	00:27:53	Yeah. And so I think, I think the, the contrast to that would be to sort of quickly read through some passages and, and that be it, like, you know, I'm not absorbing it, not wrestling with it, not internalizing it, not, um, not taking it with me, but just reading it like at a shallow level. There's a diff distinct difference between the two of what you're describing in this.
Sarah Young	00:28:21	Yeah. I think that can be, um, a problem with, for example, trying to read the Bible. Like I tried to read the Bible in a year, a couple years ago, and, um, it's hard because you have to read so much every day to be able to read the Bible in a year. Yeah. Um, and so it's hard to take time to really stop and see what the scripture is saying. And so that's where I think, um, with meditation, it helps you to just slow down and focus on a few verses, just, just a short passage. Yeah. And really just spend time with God in that passage and see what he's trying to teach you through it.
Jason Montoya	00:29:17	Yeah. So what's, what's the importance of Christ? Um, and as we interpret scripture and, and, um, what's, what's his role? What's the importance of Jesus and all of this
Sarah Young	00:29:32	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>? Well, yeah, I think Jesus said to his disciples, um, in John that he would, um, he would send the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth mm-hmm. <affirmative> and teach them everything about what he said. So, um, when we are reading scripture, um, I think we need to look at it through the lens of Christ. Um, because sometimes reading the Old Testament can be difficult to understand if we don't understand the context of, um, Christ's finish work on the cross and the gospel mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, yeah. And so
Jason Montoya	00:30:26	In fact, it can, it can almost have the opposite effect where it's mm-hmm.
Sarah Young	00:30:30	<affirmative>
Jason Montoya	00:30:30	Where it's, it's, it's, um, distracting or offensive or, or really difficult, but through the, through the cross, it kind of changes the way we see it.
Sarah Young	00:30:40	Yeah. So I think just looking at it with that, um, interpretive lens, I guess. And, um, there's also a, a meditation method called Le Davina. Okay. Um, and this is from, I think, the sixth century. It's a very classic Christian meditation method, and the key to Electio Divina is reading scripture with, um, with Christ's presence in mind and entering into the passage of scripture, um, with Christ in us as the key. And seeing how, uh, looking at the scripture with that awareness of Christ can, can teach us different things about the passage.
Jason Montoya	00:31:35	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I think for me, I, um, there are, there are two things like categorically that have led have been transformative in terms of my understanding. And one is understanding Christ and God and who he is and His glory, and then understanding how he sees me. Um, and then the two, the two, the interplay between the two. And, um, so that's maybe an example of, of what you're describing as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we, you kind of mentioned a little bit earlier about just God's grace and forgiveness, how it creates a safe space for us to be ourselves. So, and, and I think you wanna encourage us to pray honestly and deeply mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what does that mean, and why don't we do that to begin with?
Sarah Young	00:32:32	Yeah. I think, I guess for people who grow up in church or have a long experience of being a Christian, um, we kind of see prayer as this place to perform or to prove ourselves to God. Um, like we're supposed to follow a specific, um, like outline or structure to pray in the right way. Um, but that's not really kind of how, I guess, how scripture shows us to pray, for example, in, um, in the Psalms, um, the Psalms are just full of David and other people just opening up their hearts to God with all these feelings of anger and sadness and anxiety. And it gives us kind of a model for how we can approach God. The Psalms kind of show us that we have permission to talk to God in that way. Um, and, um, I think it's important to we, when we pray, when we're just, um, in conversation with God not to try to hide parts of ourselves mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and not to kind of cover up things because everything is open to God. Yeah. And so if we see that he can already see everything, and he already knows everything that's going on in our hearts, um, then why not just be honest with him and talk to him openly? Um, yeah. And just knowing that he will respond with Grace and that we're, um, we're forgiven before him.
Jason Montoya	00:34:37	Yeah. And it, uh, so I'm, I've got a book that I'm reading now called, who Will Deliver Us by Paul Zul, and he, he uses this phrase, um, assimilation of negativity. And so, um, I think what you're also saying is like, we can dive into, and what he's saying in the book is, we can dive into the uncomfortable and difficult things in our own hearts, our own evil, our own sin, our own pride. And, and then God can actually heal us if we, if we can go, if we sort of look, look those things in the face versus ignoring them or avoiding them, which God sees anyway, it's really us that has to, um, to face it, uh, <laugh>. So what would you speak into that at?
Sarah Young	00:35:25	Um, I think it's, it comes down to trusting God to transform us mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because really we can't really transform ourselves or, um, we can't become like Christ in our own power, in our own strength.
Jason Montoya	00:35:47	Yeah.
Sarah Young	00:35:48	We have to depend on, on God to, um, to do that in us. Um, so I think it's about trusting him <laugh> really just Yeah. Depending on, on him and his, his faithfulness, um, to do that in us.
Jason Montoya	00:36:10	Yeah. And I think there's, I guess, two layers there that, that kind of stick out for me. One is like, to, to recognize that re truth, that reality is, um, is overwhelming and, and, um, and paralyzing and, and, and just the, the sense of I'm on, I'm on, I, I feel like I'm on my own. I can't transform myself. I'm sort of doomed to that. But the contrast of the gospel is to say, actually, that's only part of the story. And Jesus is saying, yeah, that's, that's the situation, but I've actually overcome it already. I've already taken care of that and, um, jump in the boat, so to speak. Right. <laugh>. So it's, um, it's, it's scary to face, but we already have the answer of which we've already got the antidote to the poison as, as maybe a way to think about it, right?
Sarah Young	00:37:07	Hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Jason Montoya	00:37:10	So you, you, uh, what would you say, and, uh, you talk about this idea of, um, mindfulness being embodied and, and having an incarnation view of mindfulness. So what do you mean by that? Share with us what that, what, what's, uh, going on there?
Sarah Young	00:37:31	Yeah. So I think, um, I guess I mentioned before a lot of Christians tend to separate our spiritual lives from our physical lives. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, or another way to say it would split Yeah. Splitting, um, like the sacred from the secular
Jason Montoya	00:37:51	Okay.
Sarah Young	00:37:51	Is a common way to phrase it. Yeah. Um, and I think, um, I guess like I mentioned before, there's this broken relationship between ourselves and ourselves.
Jason Montoya	00:38:07	<laugh>. Yeah. <laugh>.
Sarah Young	00:38:10	Like, we have this kind of disconnect between our, our bodies, our physical experience, and our, I guess, spiritual experience. But, um, um, I guess mindfulness, but also just, um, the truth of Christ's incarnation. Um, it helps us to kind of restore this broken relationship.
Jason Montoya	00:38:44	Um, and for those that are not as familiar with the incarnation, what, what is that? What is the, what does Jesus's incarnation mean?
Sarah Young	00:38:50	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. It means that, um, God became a man that Christ was a human. Um, he was incarnated or he took on flesh Yeah. And he lived our human life. Um, so God understands and knows our human experience. Yeah. Um, and he, he suffered and he had pain, and he had mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, all the experiences we have as humans. Yeah. And so in our experience of pain and suffering, we can identify with Christ in that. And, and also just in our everyday moments, um, when we're just doing things that don't necessarily have a spiritual connotation. Um, even in those moments, in those activities, um, we can be aware of Christ, um, and his incarnation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, knowing that he kind of, he came into our everyday lives and he kind of sanctified that or brought, um, he brought the presence of God into our, um, our physical experiences and our everyday lives.
Jason Montoya	00:40:18	Yeah. And would you kind of, going back to the mindfulness, how does that play into how we, how we can observe and participate and understand that, in other words, he's living in our physical reality, but, but we can also completely miss that. So how do you connect the two?
Sarah Young	00:40:39	Yeah. I think a big aspect of mindfulness is being aware of our experiences, um, accepting our experiences. So even, for example, having the experience of pain in our bodies, um, there are several mindfulness meditations or resources that will help to, um, to just accept or be with those experiences of pain. Um, and there's actually been some studies that show that, um, mindfulness meditation can actually help to reduce the experience of chronic pain. Um, and it's not that it changes <laugh> the pain, but it, it helps us to be aware of kind of, um, be aware of how it is in this present moment without kind of, um, catastrophizing or saying like, oh, this is so horrible. Like, I have this pain. It's, it's terrible. And kind of thinking about how it's going to affect our future or something. Um, but just being with it in this present moment and kind of accepting how it is now, and that kind of helps to, um, reduce the experience of pain. So it's really interesting
Jason Montoya	00:42:20	<laugh>. Yeah. That is. So what, uh, you mentioned catastrophizing, uh, and that's something that you've, you've experienced yourself and, and I, as I, I imagine we all have, uh, what, what is that and, and, um, what, what do you mean by that?
Sarah Young	00:42:36	Yeah, I, I guess I get that word from, from C B T Cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's a cognitive distortion. So there's a lot of types of cognitive distortions, which are things that we, um, we kind of change the way we think about something, but it's not, um, the way things really are <laugh>. So catastrophizing is one of those, and that's, um, kind of making a situation a worse problem than it really is in our minds. Um, and it's, um, we can like kind of have these thoughts and feelings about, um, a situation. Like, it's just completely terrible. It's a catastrophe. It's, um, nothing's gonna go right, everything's just gonna go wrong. And it's, we kind of have these thoughts that play in our heads mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and I guess mindfulness can help us, um, notice those thoughts, um, become aware of those thoughts and recognize how they are not true or not necessarily true. Um, so if, if mind Mindfulness is about being aware or noticing, um, our thoughts, then tools like cognitive behavioral therapy can then help us to, um, change those sets. Um, yeah. It gives us a tool for how to, um, take control a little bit and, um, change how we think and how we feel and what we do. Yeah.
Jason Montoya	00:44:31	So tell us, what is C B t, uh, co cognitive behavioral therapy? What, what is that and what's that process look like at just a summary level?
Sarah Young	00:44:40	It's, um, it's a common, um, type of therapy, um, for, it's used for dealing with a lot of different mental health, um, issues like anxiety or depression. And, um, it's really the, the essence is how our thoughts, emotions, and behaviors all influence each other. And, um, when we can pinpoint or notice a thought or an emotion or a behavior that is not true or not, um, helpful, um, then we can kind of change that and, um, kind of become aware of, of what we're doing
Jason Montoya	00:45:31	<laugh>. Yeah. And so what, how does that play into what you've, like, how does CBT specifically, how does it play into to meditation? Is it essentially simply a, a, a form of it, or is it play, like interface with it? How do you,
Sarah Young	00:45:50	Um, explain that? I would say it's another, another tool, like another tool that we can use for, um, supporting our mental health and wellbeing. Um, I guess if, if meditation is a way to practice, um, practice becoming aware, um, then I guess C B T is like what you do when you become aware
Jason Montoya	00:46:24	<laugh>. Okay. Like,
Sarah Young	00:46:25	Okay, so that's the next step. What do we do after we notice and stop, um, when we're kind of caught up in these thoughts and feelings of, of anxiety or whatever it is.
Jason Montoya	00:46:38	Yeah. And so I guess if someone is ex like that catastrophizing, the, we can kind of re we can unravel pretty quickly and go into places, um, pretty and pretty severe places quickly, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I Is is the C B T the tool to help us, prevent us from unraveling in those moments? Or is it once you sort of catch yourself, then you would use it? H how would you describe that?
Sarah Young	00:47:16	Um, <affirmative>, I would say it's, um, it's what we can do once we catch ourselves. Okay. Because, um, I think one of the big ideas of mindfulness is that it's really normal in our everyday lives to just be on autopilot or like automatic mode. Um, our minds can just really go down these rabbit trails of thoughts and worries and anxieties, or we get lost in our thoughts. Um, but mindfulness is about helping us to notice, um, and stop. So, like, for example, I could be, I mean, this happens to me on a daily basis. I'm like washing dishes or something, and I notice that my mind is just completely full of an anxious thoughts. And Yeah. And I think before I learned mindfulness, it wasn't as easy for me to notice when this happened. Yeah. Um, my mind would just be always on, on autopilot. Um, but practicing mindfulness, I've learned, and it's become more of a habit, more, um, like more easy to, um, to notice when, when I'm lost in those thoughts. Yeah. And then to stop and, for example, stop, um, take some deep breaths
Jason Montoya	00:49:00	Yeah.
Sarah Young	00:49:01	Come back into the present moment, um, and like notice something in my present moment experience, uh, it's like, um, using a grounding technique. So grounding would be like just noticing something in your physical experience Yeah. And that brings you back into the present moment.
Jason Montoya	00:49:24	And so what about, like, would, would counting be example, like counting to five? Would that be a grounding example? Yeah. Okay.
Sarah Young	00:49:29	Grounding, like counting to five or seeing five things you can see or something. Yeah. Um,
Jason Montoya	00:49:37	Trying to hold onto what's real versus what's imaginative. Yeah.
Sarah Young	00:49:43	Yeah. And then you have this, um, then you have the choice to change what you're doing or to change how you're thinking. Um, it's kind of about recognizing that you have, you have agency or you have, um, the ability to make a decision Yeah. About what you're going to do in that moment.
Jason Montoya	00:50:07	Okay. And so, I, I guess I, I think of it as, um, there's two, two pieces of that. One is catching ourself as we're unraveling mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then the other part is actually dealing with whatever caused us to go down that, um, that pathway to begin with mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, which, which of, of the tools is the catching and which of the tools is, um, prevent, you know, healing, preventing it from even happening in the first place?
Sarah Young	00:50:40	Um,
Jason Montoya	00:50:41	I, I think you said the mindfulness is sort of the catching part. Yeah. Cause I can see myself, I can grab my, sort of, grab that. Um, so I guess if that's the case, then, then what would be the prevention
Sarah Young	00:50:53	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Or the, yeah. Being able to catch ourselves. Yeah. Um, and, um, dealing with those things, I guess. I mean, there's a lot of different tools, but for example, C B T, um, and then I just also think prayer <laugh> like Yeah. When we, when we, when we stop and notice ourselves in a moment like that, um, I feel like it should be kind of our first instinct to go to God in prayer. Yeah. Um, and to bring that situation to God, um, to talk to him about it, to tell him what's going on in our hearts, what we're feeling, uh, what's happening in our minds. And to listen to him and see, um, just what he's saying. For example, um, for example, um, if you're having thoughts of, um, maybe judgment towards yourself, um, and you're saying like, oh, I'm, I'm such a bad person.
Sarah Young	00:52:09	Look at what I did. Or, or, oh, I shouldn't be thinking this way. I shouldn't be feeling this way. Um, well, then if you notice those thoughts and bring it to God in prayer, then mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's like asking God what he thinks. Well, God, what do you think about, um, what I'm thinking or feeling right now? Uh, what do you think about this thought I'm having? Like, like I'm judging myself or I'm a horrible person, for example. Yeah. Like, and usually when we bring it to God and in prayer like that, we'll, you know, we'll get the response of, well, God's love and God's grace. Um, he, he's not judging us mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so we shouldn't judge ourselves, um, for example. So
Jason Montoya	00:53:08	Yeah. So I think one of the things that comes to mind that I, I, I think it's part of the dynamic here that's it's unfolding when we're dealing with, you know, our mind goes down this catastrophic path or anxiety, whatever, or even depression, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's a sense of, sometimes for me, when it, when I go down those pathways and I'm, Ima I'm imagining this fake world or fake explanation, it's, it's, it's a coping mechanism to avoid the very real pain that I'm feeling. Maybe it's, or the feel, the emotion that I'm feeling, whether it's maybe anger or rejection or loneliness or whatever it might be. Like we have a hard time sitting in those uncomfortable emotions, sitting in those, in that pain. And, and not that we should want to be in pain, but we certainly could be better at, um, at facing it and processing through it, or, or at least we can develop the habits and disciplines to help us through that. I mean, is that part of it, or would you, what would you say to that? Speak into that.
Sarah Young	00:54:23	I'm sorry. Could, can you kind of rephrase the
Jason Montoya	00:54:28	Question? Yeah. So how do we, like you kind of mentioned a little bit earlier, like, if we can reframe how we see pain, it helps us to sit with it more effectively. And so I think that because we don't do that, it makes some of these mental issues more severe than they would otherwise be. Is is that mm-hmm.
Jason Montoya	00:54:51	Correct. Or am I off?
Sarah Young	00:54:55	Yeah. I think, yeah. I guess it's about our, our perception mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and mindfulness is a lot about having, having the right attitude and the right perception of things mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So yeah, I think it's, um, it's pretty common to blow things out of proportion and kind of to make generalizations or to kind of use your emotions as your way to make decisions or something. Um, but mindfulness is a lot about, um, being aware of our perceptions of things Yeah. And realizing that, um, the way we might be thinking about something is not necessarily true.
Jason Montoya	00:56:06	Yeah.
Sarah Young	00:56:08	Um, I guess there's, um, there's an idea in mindfulness called non-identification. Um, and this is where we kind of take a step back from our thoughts and our feelings, um, where we don't identify with the thoughts and feelings, um, and we don't say that this thought defines me. Yeah. But we take a step away and kind of look at it from this perspective of anno an outsider, I guess, and say, oh, I'm having this thought, but this thought isn't necessarily true. And it's like, not identifying with the thought. So, um, I think, yeah. Part of mindfulness is about being able to take a step back and kind of look at our experiences through different eyes,
Jason Montoya	00:57:11	<laugh>. Yeah. So how would you differentiate going back to catastrophic thinking as a leader or as a parent that actually can be a useful tool to prevent, um, to create safety, to prevent issues, to be proactive. So how would you distinguish or discern the difference between a healthy, um, foresight of what could go wrong and an unhealthy obsession of the catastrophic
Sarah Young	00:57:41	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>? Yeah. I mean, like, we should always, you know, be thinking about, you know, protecting people, protecting each other, keeping people safe. Yeah. Um, but I guess we tend to sort of worry a lot and turn it into just, um, worrying about the future. But, um, I think the distinction would be trying to have the right perception of things and trying to have a realistic view of, um, for example, what's, what's actually possible? What could, um, I guess what could happen, um, and what can I do? Like kind of what's in my, what's in my power to do to, um, to protect or to prevent that from happening, I guess.
Jason Montoya	00:58:50	Yeah.
Sarah Young	00:58:51	I'm
Jason Montoya	00:58:52	Not sure. And, and I guess what, so then in that case, it would be a matter of, okay, if there is something I can do, I can take that step. Um, but, but at that point, then I have to sort of surrender to God and say, God, I I've done what I can, but you've gotta do, it's up to you to sort of fill the gap. Is that, is that what I'm hearing?
Sarah Young	00:59:13	Yeah. Like, um, I guess we, we should always be, um, kind of listening to God and paying attention to what, what he's saying to us in this moment.
Jason Montoya	00:59:31	Um, yeah.
Sarah Young	00:59:33	And, and of course we do have responsibility to, to take action and, and to take care of ourselves and take care of other Yeah. Um, but there are some things we can't do, and that's when it's just leaving it in God's hands. Yeah. And, um,
Jason Montoya	00:59:55	Well, and that's where it can get, I think, confusing, and this is where I guess we have to seek God's direction, is in some cases we might be paralyzed, encouraged to act is what we need to do. And in other cases, our, our, uh, men, our mental, um, unraveling may drive us to do some action that we actually would be better off not doing and just stopping. Right. And, um, and so it's, it's not always obvious which one it is. Right. <laugh>. Yeah,
Sarah Young	01:00:29	That's true. I think, I guess that's where it, um, where it becomes important to know God's word cuz um mm-hmm. <affirmative> God's word is what kind of gives us this general direction of like, how, how we should live. Yeah. Um, where he, you know, he gives us instructions and he tells us how to live basically <laugh>.
Jason Montoya	01:00:58	Yeah. So
Sarah Young	01:00:59	We should know, for example, what God says in the the Bible. Um, but also I think his word, um, gives us wisdom, and so we can, um, we can also make our own choices with the wisdom that Yeah. Comes from his word <laugh>.
Jason Montoya	01:01:24	Yeah. Yeah. So, ta talk to us about how mindfulness and meditation help us stay connected to God as the source of life and goodness and, um, and how God, how that connection, um, uh, its importance to us.
Sarah Young	01:01:46	Yeah. I think, um, we can be aware of, of God's presence with us at all times. Um, for example, Jesus said, remain in me as I remain in you. Um, he sent the Holy Spirit to be with us and knowing that he is always with us. Um, I think, um, this idea of mindfulness is just also being in the present, living in the present moment with awareness of God's presence with us. So we can always have, um, we can always be listening to him and aware of him, um, but also I think we can intentionally set aside time to, um, for example, to practice meditation or prayer or reading the word. Yeah. Um, and, and these practices can obviously open us up to being, um, more aware mm-hmm. <affirmative> of his presence of us, if that makes sense.
Jason Montoya	01:03:09	Yeah. And I think, I guess the other thing I would ask about is, you know, we can read the scriptures and meditate on those and understand them, but there is going to be situations that we have to deal with that aren't specifically addressed in scripture. And so how does that relationship, um, how do we, how do we work through those types of situations?
Sarah Young	01:03:40	Um, I think bringing it to God in prayer,
Jason Montoya	01:03:45	<laugh>. Yeah.
Sarah Young	01:03:49	I guess, like I said, trusting, um, trusting in his, in his, um, kind of his providence and his provision. Um, yeah. Obviously we have to make decisions and do things in our lives that are not addressed in scripture.
Jason Montoya	01:04:12	Yeah. Um,
Sarah Young	01:04:14	But I think when we're connected with God, um, we can be sensitive to his guidance and his direction, um, and we can kind of even make decisions without having clear guidance necessarily, but still trusting that God is going to work, um, and he's going to kind of, he's going to be faithful and he's going to Yeah. Um, guide us.
Jason Montoya	01:04:55	Yeah. So let's, um, let's talk a little bit about, you mentioned C B T, um, you know, they're self-awareness control over how our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors influence us having that, that mindfulness. Um, what about other systems, software, mindfulness apps, um, you know, know there's 10% better, there's calm, there are many others, and they seem to be popping, a lot of 'em seem to be popping up, and we, at least in America, it seems like, you know, there's an anx anxiety, a lot of anxiety, um, not just because the pan, even before the pandemic hit, we were kind of already, um, struggling with that and the pandemic sort of amplified it. Um, what would you say to these and, and then also other religious practices, um, you know, what is a Christian's, uh, perspective on these things and, and how should we wisely navigate them?
Sarah Young	01:05:48	Yeah. There's a lot of, um, mindfulness apps, um, and resources, um, that come from a secular perspective. Yeah. Um, and it can be, it can be tricky because some of them also have Buddhist overtones.
Jason Montoya	01:06:09	Yeah.
Sarah Young	01:06:10	Um, but I don't believe that as Christians, we should completely avoid these resources. Yeah. Um, I think a Christian response would be more to ask the Holy Spirit for discernment. And, um, because for, for one thing, mindfulness is, um, the scientific, there's a lot of research supporting its use and supporting its helpfulness in, um, in mental health. Yeah. And I think like the science and psychology and, um, can help us to make use of these resources and these tools, like the secular meditation apps, but, um, we can come to them with, um, a Christian perspective because maybe sometimes the mindfulness meditation will say, for example, um, something that we don't necessarily feel like we should participate in as Christians. Um, and for, I, I mean, I don't believe that it can harm us necessarily because I believe the Holy Spirit is protecting us and guiding us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, he, um, he gives us discernment. Yeah. So we, we can ask him for guidance in, in which practices we should participate in and which ones maybe we should avoid. Yeah. Um, but at the same time, trusting that God is present with us and he's protecting us. So it's not that anything will necessarily damage us <laugh>. Yeah. If that makes sense.
Jason Montoya	01:08:13	Well, and I think even, even if it did, we can believe trust that God will work, will rectify us even if that were the case, um, that God is gonna continually work and heal us out. And I guess maybe the exam, maybe an example would be, or a small example might be, um, the, is the idea of the truth of what is true, what is not true. And if we come to some false belief, um, you know, the Holy Spirit can work that out in us if we're meditating in the scriptures. Right.
Sarah Young	01:08:46	Yeah. And, um, I think there's, uh, there's a verse that says the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. Yeah. So the spirit of truth, um, and he, he guides us into the truth, so Yeah.
Jason Montoya	01:09:05	Yeah. <laugh>. And so are there, are there any that you, or any tools or, I mean, you mentioned C B T, are there any tools or apps, um, or any practices that you do tend to prefer over others because of, um, because they're coming from either a secular or a religious point of view? Um, are, are there even any Christian resources that are directly available? I mean, you got your website and your ebook, and I'm glad to see that, but is, is there much else out there?
Sarah Young	01:09:38	Um, I do use some secular mindfulness apps. Yeah.
Jason Montoya	01:09:44	Um,
Sarah Young	01:09:46	My favorite one is called Smiling Mind. Okay. And it's, um, it's a meditation app from an Australian, uh, non-profit organization. And, um, I like these kinds of mindfulness meditations because they're really, um, practical and not, they don't have these spiritual connotations. Yeah. So from, from a secular, I guess point of view, it's, it's really just, um, kind of practicing this everyday skill of being mindful in your daily life. Yeah. Um, and there, I guess from a Christian perspective, there are, there are a lot of meditation apps actually coming out these days. Um, I, I really like a Christian. Um, there's a Christian meditation podcast. Yeah. It's called the Christian Meditation Podcast. <laugh> <laugh>, I think that's the name of it. Um, I really like that one. And, um, there's another app called, um, reflect, reflect Christian Mindfulness.
Jason Montoya	01:11:03	Okay.
Sarah Young	01:11:04	Um, so yeah, I think there's a lot of resources. Um, and, um, if I could mention my ebook
Jason Montoya	01:11:15	Also. Yeah, yeah. So tell us, tell us about the ebook and what's in it and, and how it works and, um, yeah. How people could access it. So,
Sarah Young	01:11:25	Yeah. So, um, I'm creating a 30 day scripture meditation devotional. Um, it's called Enter His Rest. And, um, this is a devotional where every day, um, um, it's a guided meditation on scripture. So, um, it's, it's similar to listening to a guided meditation on audio. Yeah. But it's in written form. And so, um, in this devotional, um, each day has one passage of scripture, and the topics are entering God's rest, um, finding peace, um, um, trusting God. And so scripture's about those topics. And so each day just guides you through, um, meditating on that scripture.
Jason Montoya	01:12:30	Yeah. So, and would, would you say this is for someone that is, um, new to, to this meditation or an expert, or who's, who's the best, uh, fit for this ebook?
Sarah Young	01:12:42	This is for anyone who is interested in Christian meditation, and it is for beginners, essentially. So, yeah, if you, if you don't know anything about Christian meditation, um, the goal of this devotional is to help teach you how to meditate as a Christian by doing it. So you're going to learn, I guess, um, how to meditate on scripture.
Jason Montoya	01:13:09	Yeah. It's a daily exercise. Right. And about how long does it take for each, uh, do you, is it like how much time does someone wanna dedicate each day for this?
Sarah Young	01:13:18	Um, about 15 to 20 minutes is what I would say for each day.
Jason Montoya	01:13:24	Okay. Yeah. And anything else about it you wanna share?
Sarah Young	01:13:31	Um,
Jason Montoya	01:13:32	And, and I guess to access it, they would simply go to your website, common grace.com?
Sarah Young	01:13:38	Yes. So, um, there will be a link on my website, uh, coleman grace.com. Um, if you, it's, um, it will, it will be available for pre-order. Yeah. Um, and, um, if you want to find out at this point, you can go to common grace.com/subscribe. Um Okay. And sign up for an email list, um, and then you'll do the first email when it's released.
Jason Montoya	01:14:11	Okay. Cool. Well, that's exciting. And how long have you had the website? Have you been doing the website?
Sarah Young	01:14:19	I started Calming Grace in, uh, January, 2020.
Jason Montoya	01:14:24	Okay. So you, you were like a li you had some foresight there to prior to the pandemic, then <laugh> Yeah. Some, uh, some providential guidance there. <laugh>.
Sarah Young	01:14:34	Yeah, it was,
Jason Montoya	01:14:36	I was, I mean, have you, have you found, have you had any feedback from people just in regards, I mean, last year was quite a, quite a ride for, for even those of us that had a little bit of a grounding in place already, it was still quite intense. So have you found that as well, um, in terms of people that have interacted with your stuff or with you
Sarah Young	01:14:57	Mm-hmm. <affirmative>? Yeah, I've had a lot of people, um, um, getting emails from people who've read my website, um, saying that they were looking for resources to help them deal with anxiety and stress and, um, or for example, people who went to therapy and their, their therapist told them about mindfulness and they were looking for mindfulness from a Christian perspective. Yeah. So it's, it's really, um, an honor that I've been able to speak into these people's lives and, um, kind of that my website has been able to be a resource for people to learn about these things,
Jason Montoya	01:15:40	<laugh>. And so we connected on, on Twitter and, um, and Twitter is like the anxiety inducing machine. So tell us about that and your presence on it and, and how your, cuz you share some of this type of stuff in tweet form, right? How, how has that unfolded for you?
Sarah Young	01:16:02	Um, yeah, I started, um, a Twitter account just kind of to share my blog. Yeah. Um, it's been kind of slow growing. It, I don't know, <laugh>, it's, it's like, um, I think I, I used to just kind of share, share my blog posts on Twitter, but now I'm kind of realizing that if you want to be kind of, I don't know, successful on Twitter, I guess you could say you kind of have to interact with people Yeah. And be a real person and not just share links all the time.
Jason Montoya	01:16:40	<laugh>, yeah. <laugh>. I'm trying to, yeah. It, it is a commitment. It's, it's a hard thing. Um, I think if you, you go down that road, it, it can be fruitful, but yeah, it is certainly a commitment that you have to stick with.
Sarah Young	01:16:51	Yeah. <laugh>. But I enjoy it. I like seeing those thoughts and stuff on there.
Jason Montoya	01:16:58	<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess, what else, uh, would you, um, would you have to share with us to, didn't get a chance to share already? Have we, we missed anything or have we covered everything?
Sarah Young	01:17:13	Um, I'm pretty sure we've covered everything. <laugh>.
Jason Montoya	01:17:20	All right. So, um, if people wanna check out, um, you, they can, I'll put links in the, in the page notes, um, to your website, to your, to your Twitter. Um, you have a Pinterest as well, you're on Instagram. Um, so those are great ways to, you do these great graphics, um, with a lot of quotes and scriptures and, and insights, how people can follow along on there. They can subscribe to your email newsletter and, um, and get news about your ebook, um, as that, uh, as that becomes available. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Anything else? Uh, any other way that people connect, connect with you or does that cover it?
Sarah Young	01:17:58	I'm pretty sure. Yeah, that's it. Call please.com and then whatever social media,
Jason Montoya	01:18:03	<laugh>. Okay. Great. Well, thank you so much for sharing. I appreciate it. Thank
Sarah Young	01:18:06	You so much for having me. It's been really a nice convers.